From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Radon Rosborough Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Adding advisory notification for non-ELPA package.el downloads Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:19:35 -0700 Message-ID: References: <1500553768.497130.1046984072.1622AF4D@webmail.messagingengine.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1500567631 24063 195.159.176.226 (20 Jul 2017 16:20:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:20:31 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Rankin Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 20 18:20:23 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dYEBa-0005nG-Hw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 18:20:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39006 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dYEBg-0002pr-5b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:20:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46087) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dYEBZ-0002pl-2m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:20:22 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dYEBX-0006Cq-VJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:20:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-io0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22c]:37981) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dYEBW-00066I-CK; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:20:18 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-io0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id g13so13428537ioj.5; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:20:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8tW4A+F5P/KSWHbxrKN2Z81O3i8maRTMezsylFDeywA=; b=Ocqf7nBxwntTI5PqS89kTBwsf5NMYdJObaOT1VpfiurjFoK6c4nKgXnzNZhxRe1AO1 vV6kQVCKZTnEc8gRX2UQ3tNA9mZSEFKviYAluf2vItcDvWDhMR2huDeM4hpO3QzlUKLg 7YGqSARkEiyOJBgI7tJ7q7+/dlnfUpz/fAGlRcUrMk1Vsj9HVExZfJtMWNkn9NtlHjNp SijFd394iTqNyzODtvaXGCD05earwCQGCmjvTndCut9uXNIAs8rycr3XlLH3rUDbZORX q+nHjW0/Ui+9FsEjRSaj9hO4dfhuG88w7u/3b9Xs7JvrWfSWlsRtvvf3Lbv+crbxyAvw zBjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8tW4A+F5P/KSWHbxrKN2Z81O3i8maRTMezsylFDeywA=; b=gsXQQK6ZA0CO+hh6z/QRzNaxKmIieA5+eJh1Uy5gVU2y0h295CIJjxWxPg7xxFIa50 jTRNgVia3ojqncO3lG9z2ehv7FPDo/SA/7R3RSoSovXc5QRikDmKdYP64MeqsFPES7hn HrnsG8P9Rxszi7Ysf748op0BF79L5gGkwSVxBV4UZDVFbTXgV4IR1e1D6DkU/12A01gQ vbObROtUhfykCrgK25TWF3mvH5ZoqWqL6Jx49o0QqxFRBWXPx5yFvfbr/y6eDemFEAzJ ZJpmp7sZgLPfkoKw+uz4Vqv+WxiQcd2mKc2nzYSVWiZxL4GPKRfqMbyMPcfK+Db2xTlN CxJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111JtCo7W8QovXM3b56v2L1vPTTdDJp5xXf59A09x62qyB+vDwRN g9Qgl68wFpym7zQJ+dXz4SBsNhRs4SRo X-Received: by 10.107.161.206 with SMTP id k197mr3870718ioe.91.1500567615937; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.50.185.202 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:19:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1500553768.497130.1046984072.1622AF4D@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:216902 Archived-At: > All of this is based on the assumption that people *want* to assign > their copyright to FSF. I think this is possibly the most important point here. Not everyone agrees about these sorts of issues. Some people don't want to assign copyright to the FSF. Some people don't want to put their packages on GNU ELPA. Some people don't want to license their code under the GPL. And we have to respect these feelings. If we try to *force* people, then that will just make them angry and liable to spread exaggerated criticism. In my opinion, the only reasonable way to make more people assign copyright to the FSF is to make this process as easy as possible. The appropriate response to people preferring MELPA over GNU ELPA is to make GNU ELPA just as feature-rich and easy to use as MELPA. Displaying a notice message in Emacs about these things will annoy people. Not me, personally; I'll just turn it off. But I'm not important: the people who are important are the people who don't care about this stuff, and will just see the message as a nuisance that turns them off Emacs. In other words, the other 95% of developers who do not use Emacs but whom we want to convince to use Emacs. I might have my own opinions about these issues, but I care much, much more about Emacs and other free software becoming more widely used. Pragmatically, the only way that this will happen is if they become better alternatives to non-free software. Putting the GPL on them is not sufficient. If someone advocating non-free software is inconvenienced by the GPL, then that will just push them even farther away. Likewise, if someone receives a message telling them how they should manage the copyright for their project, that will also push them farther away, if they happen to disagree with the FSF's stance on copyright assignment. That's why these issues about making contributions easy and using modern development tooling are really important. Regardless of anyone's personal feelings on the matter, it's a fact that software projects which have kept a closer eye on these things have seen more success and adoption. I'd love to see Emacs overtake Atom but that won't happen unless we stop being so insular and distrusting of the "outside world". RMS, I've seen you say things like "we need to make it clear that the 'Emacs ecosystem' is not part of Emacs" and "there is a big ethical problem with melpa.org" (I'm quoting from memory, please correct me if I'm wrong). You may perfectly well be right, but that doesn't mean it's the right message to send: "We are right; you are wrong; please do it our way instead or you shouldn't be a part of our community." To reiterate, the most important thing to do is to bring the FSF way into feature and easy-of-use parity with third-party offerings. That is what will bring success, in the long run. Best regards, Radon Rosborough