From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Radon Rosborough Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Summary and next steps for (package-initialize) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 10:20:55 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1503249709 13200 195.159.176.226 (20 Aug 2017 17:21:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 17:21:49 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 20 19:21:45 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1djTuw-00035P-Iw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 19:21:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40636 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djTv3-0000NZ-0X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 13:21:49 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36094) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djTus-0000Ls-It for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 13:21:39 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djTur-000093-Oi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 13:21:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]:34592) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djTur-00008W-G2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 13:21:37 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id g77so26519713lfg.1 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 10:21:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9Gvxv6YlnvMYPiFxtGuK5WFE5fEqOpAU271QYX/3r80=; b=jaVoUupqspFywnEArlUfsXnYR8IbjFONqHknA84sst8YzAGykd7VnZDsjJg3lJf7Fy 8I/5/IQVGZ0H07L0Ay55Fr9mwqnrcCCpno2Z7z3ROJ/q8N7ko9fGtqeHZA6nDS4mXnl7 URHA1OcfFPEuDRkr6ifSdBHjyWMe1hQFqH++zXGaeCuPmA+NqM/w/3IK6uSs8sroCCZv AJ6/ZpY6LF0NwvtaC2uTxMmPG7qesnPzmKktrI7B2bcxcN8j8gqx3CCVPG9ClbMRgyhH Oq2tgwBkJqBYq+JboG8Yeq3QjuVvFapIa5DrO282c1NSYpRtg9O4NtfNE1Xz413jXNdC 1U6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9Gvxv6YlnvMYPiFxtGuK5WFE5fEqOpAU271QYX/3r80=; b=f6YLmW1CDRyH2wTjeCIQjH2RhfrRimxvrPIWU9WZsn84AMsFeKi+GH/CciB80SRio/ Zsw338wdoh/ewQnP1HGBpKNZz+uh0YJml4/+sweBdZ1xNxuWEdMxILk3ggO3ruNY/1US +VoR5Z+lVhhkBx42lAsfVeIbhDvn6dNslwXt6MWkwYk2n3sfTxuNAfz82Ue+UXhKNxHv GkyLdLwjRQ5O6Kcl0UpHf35z3sB2usz9kZL/KlZjkyJnl97VLmFXblLPNoiL2Tml7P4K 3s+dgPD+WwFScpm2tAfVVkdUxqXdMO/Sun+yyrMudZJ5Hu6uyeu2ISdtWnkvlKcbrzWx 9P+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jEw/MHha75AYrp4K/hNteiciElzp4TYRMVQN5giqVEtPqRwvPU T0iGNUrtJloYuW2AHz8jmBLCY5+SdA== X-Received: by 10.46.5.67 with SMTP id 64mr4510723ljf.157.1503249696078; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 10:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.25.80.3 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 10:20:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217636 Archived-At: > > However, if Emacs is started with no init-file, then a default > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > one will be generated and loaded (except in 'emacs -Q'). > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > What does that mean? Are you perhaps distinguishing between > switches -q and -Q? If so, why would the former lead to > generating an init file but not the latter? I mean that if user-init-file is nil, then no template init-file is generated. But if user-init-file is non-nil, and the corresponding file does not exist, then the template init-file will be generated there. It is my understanding that 'emacs -Q' (and 'emacs -q') skip loading the init-file, so I was using 'emacs -Q' as a shorthand for "init-file is not loaded, and user-init-file is nil". > Personally, I don't think Emacs should be generating init files > in any case. And certainly not generating an init file that > does something with the package system. Emacs should continue > with the point of view that you start it, by default, with no > init file - no code at all. Nada. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said. However, a significant number of people on this list disagree, which is why I have made a middle-of-the-road proposal that is more likely to be accepted. Do you agree that my proposal (only an init-file generated if one doesn't exist) is at least better than the current situation (hand-written init-file is modified programmatically by Emacs)? I'd like to fix the brokenness of the current situation before trying to move towards the best possible solution. If we accept this proposal, we could later think about things like removing (package-initialize) from the template init-file (although I doubt this will happen anytime soon, if ever, based on the feedback I got).