From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Carsten Mattner Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: gdb scripting language (was OSX crash) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:25:41 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87ty4wk90t.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1324301155 16649 80.91.229.12 (19 Dec 2011 13:25:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:25:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs developers To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 19 14:25:51 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RcdDz-0004D2-4K for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:25:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59664 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RcdDy-0006ZR-Hm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:25:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33939) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RcdDs-0006ZM-LJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:25:48 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RcdDq-0000SK-QC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:25:44 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:39963) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RcdDq-0000SD-KW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:25:42 -0500 Original-Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so7992783iac.0 for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 05:25:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dJtVGQVqTJhP5h6oDx+gM79E1wH7MMemhvztOj8IbZQ=; b=w0nJAsT4T4l/5o0+MfkYjbQX7Fj0/T5ufQs014NYgS4b426swFVwMax+E43jG6TmKm QZDkRzv7JHsyz96iNXC34CRQ9mqhfVrq8j5J3XBby81q17+rliyXrv/Mfm2jhhgMTArq HkflKiziBP9ZynqW6RSfLVY/ouAJ+xc0OkwK4= Original-Received: by 10.50.154.228 with SMTP id vr4mr27781621igb.65.1324301141707; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 05:25:41 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.50.6.165 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 05:25:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ty4wk90t.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:146823 Archived-At: On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull w= rote: > Carsten Mattner writes: > > =A0> [Python is] only made popular due to being the new Perl of the > =A0> Linux distros. > > I'm not sure exactly what your sentence referred to, but if the edit > above it correctly reflects your intent, your statement is false. > There are excellent reasons why Python is the scripting language > chosen by most distros that have made such a choice recently. =A0Those > reasons don't necessarily apply to an extension language, of course, > and we should be careful about that distinction. =A0However, I do find > some of the features of Python such as iterators, comprehensions, and > occasionally even generators to be useful at the interpreter prompt, > so I suspect they would be similarly useful if Python were used as an > extension language. I can decrypt enough Python to understand if there's a problem, but ignore it as step back for expressing execution recipes for machines. We've had better for far longer. Humanity seems to want to feel pain. The rise of C like languages in the 80s started a dark phase and sadly stopped hopeful approaches even within IBM related to Fortran, however odd that may sound. I'm not a Lisp fanboy or believer, just stating that whoever used a Lisp machine or similar in functionality and work flow in the way you write and massage or run code (images) is forever sad given popular languages. People seem to care about solutions and products more than technologies, so we have to hide the good stuff as a trojan horse inside something fancy. If a superior package manager was written in Forth and provided enough benefit, it would inevitably give Forth credit and mindshare. > Of course the other scripting languages you mention are of similar > power, but I don't find them any easier to learn than I found Python > (and I've learned several languages since I learned Python; I should > be better at it now!) =A0There's an advantage to having one language > popular enough that you only need to learn that one, which gives > Python a substantial edge on the others (except Perl, of course). > > It's also true that I find them all harder to learn than I found > forgetting Perl, but that, of course, is praising with faint damns. I'm glad I never learned enough to Perl to be dangerous, also I just ignore Python as it doesn't fit my taste. Still Python looks and feels cleaner than Ruby, which is like one of the frankenstein languages people have to use (yes C# is also like that). You cannot tack on things on a language like "modding" cars. At least you shouldn't if you respect your users. > =A0> Python being in lldb is one of problems FreeBSD faces with putting > =A0> LLDB in the base system. > > If you say so, I'll take your word for it. =A0Nevertheless, Lisps face Don't, view this instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DyVaNAm8jR_U It's buried somewhere at last 3rd IIRC. > far more resistance from the average member of the free software > community and the broader (or if you prefer, "neighboring") open > source community. Interesting, I never felt that Lisp has a hard time in the free software community. My views may miss some spectrum you're referring to. > This *is* a problem for Emacs, and I think Lispers (and advocates of > functional languages in general) could learn a lot from the success of > Python. Maybe, but I'm a believer in a project's popular functionality dictating use of some of its "controversial" choices. Nobody would use Objective-C as much if it wasn't for Cocoa (Touch) and Apple's stringent rules. Exceptions like using Mono, GHC arm or some Scheme variant are excluded as exceptions. I don't want to continue this discussion as it's way off topic and rather talked about at a table or around a camp fire.