From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Carsten Mattner Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Periodical releases Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 23:27:26 +0100 Message-ID: References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba6e872e5c497804b59316c8 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1325543263 5177 80.91.229.12 (2 Jan 2012 22:27:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 22:27:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 02 23:27:37 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqLw-0002sV-Iv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 23:27:36 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48482 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqLw-0004vs-0R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:27:36 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34238) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqLr-0004vY-2C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:27:33 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqLp-00089T-Q5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:27:31 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:51190) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqLn-00089H-NY; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:27:27 -0500 Original-Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so32742229iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:27:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=3VZywRT6TWvJfiQkPn5+YIIIokFKJGfULF8tiBd4LFw=; b=c8/5yIrh+kY/BdwKtRaPWoqd5LUAG5OYux2x+zNMhERpDmNGkoWVBChsQOsP9DMRhH KxOBvunOV+iZfNF1bi+l/uR2AchbortsKyLStKRMQrcyI8/vmoEUZ7fVkzLVrsTAtzPI GPuRMMnLYElzma9VyrJwFbyhTEbaXEFNqpBNA= Original-Received: by 10.42.151.68 with SMTP id d4mr52831524icw.36.1325543246809; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:27:26 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:27:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:147199 Archived-At: --90e6ba6e872e5c497804b59316c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, January 2, 2012, Drew Adams wrote: >> > But in no case should that difficulty/nuisance of building >> > be an excuse for releasing the product before it is fully baked. >> >> I don't mind building my emacs. > > Great. But you did cite "less of a need to build emacs manually" as an argument > why releases should be more frequent. So that distros don't carry ancient emacs versions. >> It's a nuisance to have years old Emacs version in distributions. > > Why? What's the nuisance? Anyway, you build Emacs yourself from trunk as often > as you like, and you don't mind doing so. Where's the beef? I'd like to use the packaged emacs if it wasn't too old (for me). >> To get a less buggy Emacs a better approach is releasing it >> more often so that there are more testers who wouldn't even consider >> building manually or install a prebuilt snapshot from trunk. > > Bon sang mais c'est bien sur! Ye olde cathedrale vs bazaar song... > > There are already plenty of pre-release bugs reported, needing to be fixed. > Maybe when they are fixed you can argue that Emacs should be released to get > more testers. For now, there seem to be enough people using pre-release builds > that give rise to bug reports. More input is always welcome of course, but > Emacs users are not _only_ testers and fixers. Not much to argue here. > FWIW, where I work the default, prebuilt Emacs for developers on GNU/Linux is > Emacs 21.3.1! And my impression is that few of them bother to build a more > recent version. They are seemingly not clamouring for a new version, especially > since there are already 6 (!) releases available more recent than the one they > use. (Some of them still use XEmacs, and apparently happily so.) > > It's sometimes good to step back a bit and imagine that not all, or even most, > Emacs users are involved in, or even interested in, Emacs development. > Ponder... Hard to fathom, I know. > > Many, probably most, users use Emacs the way I use my car: just to get around > and do the things I need to do. I don't work on the engine; I don't want to > understand the electrical system; and I upgrade only when the old horse just > can't make it around the block anymore even with a little coaxing. > > Now I'm sure carmakers do not consider me their prime marketing target, and I'm > perhaps not a typical car owner. But they really do need to sell new cars, to > stay in business. They need new models each year - periodic releases. > > We're not selling cars, and we're not even in business. We're not in a race or > a competition for market share. We cannot go out of business. We improve Emacs > only because we want it to be better or we enjoy improving it or both - > intrinsic reward. And there's no hurry in that. If we sold cars, looks would b more important than function. It's good this ain't a car. --90e6ba6e872e5c497804b59316c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, January 2, 2012, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
>> > But in no ca= se should that difficulty/nuisance of building
>> > be an excus= e for releasing the product before it is fully baked.
>>
>> I don't mind building my emacs.
>
> Gr= eat. =A0But you did cite "less of a need to build emacs manually"= as an argument
> why releases should be more frequent.

So tha= t distros don't carry ancient emacs versions.

>> It's a nuisance to have years old Emacs version in distrib= utions.
>
> Why? =A0What's the nuisance? =A0Anyway, you bui= ld Emacs yourself from trunk as often
> as you like, and you don'= t mind doing so. =A0Where's the beef?

I'd like to use the packaged emacs if it wasn't too old (for me= ).

>> To get a less buggy Emacs a better approach is releasing= it
>> more often so that there are more testers who wouldn't = even consider
>> building manually or install a prebuilt snapshot from trunk.
&g= t;
> Bon sang mais c'est bien sur! =A0Ye olde cathedrale vs bazaa= r song...
>
> There are already plenty of pre-release bugs repo= rted, needing to be fixed.
> Maybe when they are fixed you can argue that Emacs should be released = to get
> more testers. =A0For now, there seem to be enough people usi= ng pre-release builds
> that give rise to bug reports. =A0More input = is always welcome of course, but
> Emacs users are not _only_ testers and fixers.

Not much to argu= e here.

> FWIW, where I work the default, prebuilt Emacs for deve= lopers on GNU/Linux is
> Emacs 21.3.1! =A0And my impression is that f= ew of them bother to build a more
> recent version. =A0They are seemingly not clamouring for a new version= , especially
> since there are already 6 (!) releases available more = recent than the one they
> use. =A0(Some of them still use XEmacs, an= d apparently happily so.)
>
> It's sometimes good to step back a bit and imagine that no= t all, or even most,
> Emacs users are involved in, or even intereste= d in, Emacs development.
> Ponder... =A0Hard to fathom, I know.
>
> Many, probably most, users use Emacs the way I use my car: jus= t to get around
> and do the things I need to do. =A0I don't work= on the engine; I don't want to
> understand the electrical syste= m; and I upgrade only when the old horse just
> can't make it around the block anymore even with a little coaxing.=
>
> Now I'm sure carmakers do not consider me their prime = marketing target, and I'm
> perhaps not a typical car owner. =A0B= ut they really do need to sell new cars, to
> stay in business. =A0They need new models each year - periodic release= s.
>
> We're not selling cars, and we're not even in bu= siness. =A0We're not in a race or
> a competition for market shar= e. =A0We cannot go out of business. =A0We improve Emacs
> only because we want it to be better or we enjoy improving it or both = -
> intrinsic reward. =A0And there's no hurry in that.

If = we sold cars, looks would b more important than function. It's good thi= s ain't a car. --90e6ba6e872e5c497804b59316c8--