From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU ELPA package discoverability Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 16:03:25 +1000 Message-ID: References: <35DBF02E-44D7-41E5-A217-7D6EC84ED221@icloud.com> <4e937898-ae46-710a-cbca-e452a1156fa1@yandex.ru> <2e630dc7-ba1d-e4c9-74b3-4da976db1e82@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000016ad05a622467e" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="44117"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 21 08:04:21 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jbeJZ-000BMJ-4y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 21 May 2020 08:04:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42962 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbeJY-0006VI-7X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 21 May 2020 02:04:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38820) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbeIu-0005ez-LL for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 May 2020 02:03:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]:39498) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbeIt-0004LG-Fd; Thu, 21 May 2020 02:03:40 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id d7so4656938ote.6; Wed, 20 May 2020 23:03:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GX86Q/fp3y+xv/cBxIOtrwyyFCs7/hawXZv3iL0qRkQ=; b=f0WQ7MxndU5foBTJDC4jtSuV2s1QsxDCZAi+rsIQTgl7UzLREsajtUhOJCGegwVsaq OZOdRL3QicsZ/WWxZWiD25V0ZH6auw5DFVaMxIPlERf3m1qc+Xgx/ueoVfq3qVoix8ui JLnxTj73NJR5/nshspKfWOIACJMDGlWygjYEg7PaG7AdK0wM7qaWnK+bobFgiG9MBPWA 67kN9xPENTBW73W/3rJLkkRalIN2qrvMHPlgvph8/Krn6YBsypuDMl1e6adB1VQNy8rX KF9Yzg9hjEAqiRSuZ/I4I+qQWnBCKPwD8YzjQOjsddmpPFVvvYrz/iinaDvC4tyJP+Ao rQ+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GX86Q/fp3y+xv/cBxIOtrwyyFCs7/hawXZv3iL0qRkQ=; b=Vk+RbnakF8vHfbh7xaCPXpVfpYj+k6WPisQAEerVC2HM74mwsspz+SszQp96FgTpU+ xnP7p4A4Ejo4nWIPwctTgqQ931HxbxVo0pvB54w3fQSjoUXP7ddObd/R/u72T3k0Ve6P qtwA/LIwkHMTH/Or2reykCETaSCPgCBLd+H7MJFiZMUrzWVGkyE1Cn1baTqbI95bctvD mbTs+w8bZuImDJjsBsWG4VHZKlNrd48Z8SR2hkaIt451qjMbOjTPCrq4Dmyr+INh0bB2 gP0kjeOXlI60pVLFR3VwiAwgmHUsDDiwtClj6ljXkpkOhVP6nQhabMvek1UwgyEPnmEB molw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533nj99wOgixyqw+LbVPqfXSLk4HfCVY/KIfBcqogedwUuA11V3s l3hv3sp9/adpFyl6o/Aut2M/5L2R4ZRBDDO3XBO2SQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwe8mLj4nLG5SCm0IbhLpIk6GLJ+lioGkFQUdcuMrntqOyv7cHJSQsaR9IzEBujZMpizlGLE6Goc95ThyhZEtc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:11c6:: with SMTP id v6mr5480250otq.235.1590041017061; Wed, 20 May 2020 23:03:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::329; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x329.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251148 Archived-At: --0000000000000016ad05a622467e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 13:42, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > Is there actually a discoverability problem for GNU ELPA packages? > After > > over 25 years of Emacs use, I think discovering and trying out new > packages > > and features has never been easier. I really don't miss the old days of > > hunting around various ftp servers trying to find the latest and > current > > version of some library or package. > > It sounds like you are especially savvy about searching for packages. > Most users are not so knowledgeable; improving discoverability > wouldbe intended for their sake. > > > But that is my point. With the introduction of package.el and ELPA (as well as other 3rd party archives), you don't need to be savvy about searching for packages. In the old days, yes, this was a constant problem and time consuming. Now, all you need to do is run M-x list-packages. Each package is listed with a brief description and if you click on (or hit enter on) a package, a new window pups up with additional details (longer description, link to homepage and/or source repository etc). Emacs lisp packages are more discoverable now than they have ever been. Furthermore, if I understand correctly, core libs/packages in Emacs can be 'flagged' as 'built-in' which makes them discoverable via M-x list-packages as well. This is why I think just clarifying the rationale, goals and maintenance structure for ELPA, developing guidelines for when packages should be in ELPA and when should not would go a long way to improving the situation. As this has not been done, people are confused. Developers will turn to MELPA instead of ELPA simply because the process is clear, fast and relatively easy. Users will use MELPA because that is what the user community knows as the 'main' Emacs package archive - it is where they can find most of the things they need. Clarify what ELPA is for, how it is managed and what the process is to get a package into ELPA, then streamline this process and provide an efficient workflow for package maintenance and many may begin to use ELPA more and rely on MELPA less. Even more importantly, ELPA might become the definitive archive for good quality, stable and GPL compliant Emacs packages. -- regards, Tim -- Tim Cross --0000000000000016ad05a622467e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 13:42, Richard= Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
=
[[[ To any NSA and = FBI agents reading my email: please consider=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]<= br>
=C2=A0 > Is there actually a discoverability problem for GNU ELPA packag= es? After
=C2=A0 > over 25 years of Emacs use, I think discovering and trying out = new packages
=C2=A0 > and features has never been easier. I really don't miss the= old days of
=C2=A0 > hunting around various ftp servers trying to find the latest an= d current
=C2=A0 > version of some library or package.

It sounds like you are especially savvy about searching for packages.
Most users are not so knowledgeable; improving discoverability
wouldbe intended for their sake.



But that is my point. With the introducti= on of package.el and ELPA (as well as other 3rd party archives), you don= 9;t need to be savvy about searching=C2=A0for packages. In the old days, ye= s, this was a constant problem and time consuming. Now, all you need to do = is run M-x list-packages. Each package is listed with a brief description a= nd if you click on (or hit enter on) a package, a new window pups up with a= dditional details (longer description, link to homepage and/or source repos= itory etc). Emacs lisp packages are more discoverable now than they have ev= er been. Furthermore, if I understand correctly, core libs/packages in Emac= s can be 'flagged' as 'built-in' which makes them discovera= ble via M-x list-packages as well.=C2=A0

This is why I t= hink just clarifying the rationale, goals and maintenance structure for ELP= A, developing guidelines for when packages should be in ELPA and when shoul= d not would go a long way to improving the situation.=C2=A0

<= /div>
As this has not been done, people are confused. Developers will t= urn to MELPA instead of ELPA simply because the process is clear, fast and = relatively easy. Users will use MELPA because that is what the user communi= ty knows as the 'main' Emacs package archive - it is where they can= find most of the things they need.=C2=A0

Clarify = what ELPA is for, how it is managed and what the process is to get a packag= e into ELPA, then streamline this process and provide an efficient workflow= for package maintenance and many may begin to use ELPA more and rely on ME= LPA less. Even more importantly, ELPA might become the definitive archive f= or good quality, stable and GPL compliant Emacs packages.=C2=A0

--
regards,

Tim

--
Tim Cross

--0000000000000016ad05a622467e--