From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: auth-sources and EWW Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 15:32:58 +1000 Message-ID: References: <20200918151930.61916C21A77@raman-glaptop.localdomain> <24420.54589.59891.465361@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> <24420.57007.800364.926554@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068864a05afe04dc3" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38799"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers , Richard Stallman , "T.V Raman" To: Robert Pluim Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 22 07:34:12 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kKawN-0009ws-VZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 07:34:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33720 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKawN-00027n-23 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 01:34:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43782) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKavR-0001bm-R4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 01:33:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oo1-xc32.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::c32]:46686) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKavP-0002vR-Ph; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 01:33:13 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oo1-xc32.google.com with SMTP id b12so3840315oop.13; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 22:33:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K7t2T5UdF+qDE75Gq395ecwdAs5K90KZG0LdZgDDcJg=; b=m85jYLbvf/3lLWCy48vTb+lXM9i7+rSocflBdTaG+UiREZ6ayak3jYuJboFXVC0Rtg bTKf8cKAyYeFxSLNaFm82qh5MNgdh0pGBTArm7xtde3JVjbuw2yHhxhlnVoNIR3Diicm Ta8faAqadkdj1SGSLL1YUJzFGBdKeeieBbWzTLjXn5VXBbtbdOpSKJAAvVIWfrRYn+PM 6AAnBBG9gTsrzAFrHmcivJ2r8mKXGgPAebLQBGsq0gNJ6imo3BcL6jBiM6kpc5F/0LdS hHBhoUwYUFo4ERRzw+g8t+X06kiAS73R/NuWleshiPPLWJwxi6CIy5eg67bOPQQhNois suQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K7t2T5UdF+qDE75Gq395ecwdAs5K90KZG0LdZgDDcJg=; b=H1nOQmGGAqvJIdNU0TV5r0aZ5NZsdlmlHlP+JOoSZNIO0tJLJ//PniZwyWjZuR6B+q LZnHMkj4nk7bQCvjDd1ErB8JZIvFeL47AaB7B55NwiRDJ8MwPpP6/cWwLEqN0ZZ2Uxpd uAWWLk53uPPnpFoHI6uaH1Z8WyXUZWUWWuFgsFhjV3bIFcNK2joNgNDh2CG/Oipjd+K+ P86RB5d5p5NPJVmuY3Qsa1G8adrdXdWVRESZZrrnkxP54vyf8+pRBd8XFsPRUsuO6ot9 uIkU06OFSHtc8A5fA3kf6kjTV0hQ9gCAdnXx2eHJiD38cO268k++RG5ArvCKsJdUc0ip jZqg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530MB1G5Zf99TOSCY9+KmjzOL8Rz2m5repsISKnodZ9rfDShAwy/ W0HPhMPLkvCBkS7bQ3twMJsRFH0mgHBYCtvN1t4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz7D76O2PfRTa2woVzErBjGc6fzad+nfEQtK7yycSGja+lAuPUvaj62N0h4AhZTo4994Pa+GafNlhPCCnNocoY= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:ad05:: with SMTP id r5mr1890008oon.37.1600752789782; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 22:33:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::c32; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-oo1-xc32.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256312 Archived-At: --00000000000068864a05afe04dc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 18:19, Robert Pluim wrote: > >>>>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 07:20:24 -0700, "T.V Raman" > said: > > TVR> That's the problem, witness this cae: > > TVR> The name of the option is far removed from the place where the > symptom > TVR> manifests itself, you'd never make the connection unless you wer= e > very > TVR> close to the code. > > ??? "When I use the network, this undesirable thing happens. Do I have an= y > customizations with the word 'network' in them?" -> > 'network-stream-use-client-certificates' > > I don=CA=BCt think the evidence supports your argument in this case. > > I disagree. It wasn't as if Raman was getting a network error. He observe= d that auth-sources was being consulted whenever he visited an https URL. If I had noticed that behaviour, I would have looked for EWW settings and possibly auth-source ones and may have eventually got to the point of checking network options, but that would not have been the first place. However, perhaps the key point to note here is that this was the user experience of an Emacs user who has extensive Elisp knowledge and has been using Emacs for around 30 years. What is the user experience for a new user or a far less experienced user? --=20 regards, Tim -- Tim Cross --00000000000068864a05afe04dc3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 18:19, Robert = Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> wrot= e:
>>>&= gt;> On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 07:20:24 -0700, "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com> s= aid:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TVR> That's the problem, witness this cae:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TVR> The name of the option is far removed from the place = where the symptom
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TVR> manifests itself, you'd never make the connection= unless you were very
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TVR> close to the code.

??? "When I use the network, this undesirable thing happens. Do I have= any
customizations with the word 'network' in them?" -> 'ne= twork-stream-use-client-certificates'

I don=CA=BCt think the evidence supports your argument in this case.

I disagree. It wasn't as if Raman was getti= ng a network error. He observed that auth-sources was being consulted whene= ver he visited an https URL. If I had noticed that behaviour, I would have = looked for EWW settings and possibly auth-source ones and may have eventual= ly got to the point of checking network options, but that would not have be= en the first place.=C2=A0

However, perhaps the key= point to note here is that this was the user experience=C2=A0of an Emacs u= ser who has extensive Elisp knowledge and has been using Emacs for around 3= 0 years. What is the user experience for a new user or a far less experienc= ed user?


--
regards,

Tim

--
Tim Cross

--00000000000068864a05afe04dc3--