From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: smtp crap Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:23:50 +1100 Message-ID: References: <8739f4kzp3.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87ipo0p1bc.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <58C87CB9F44943A7BBE78F2D6B62A850@us.oracle.com> <5997613E240C402C877A76C688773E65@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1319675045 18772 80.91.229.12 (27 Oct 2011 00:24:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:24:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Chong Yidong , Miles Bader , Stefan Monnier , ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 27 02:24:00 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJDlH-00031S-NS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 02:23:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60435 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJDlG-0001Vi-Ob for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:23:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54346) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJDlD-0001Vb-62 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:23:56 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJDlC-0006gq-1k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:23:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:60376) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJDl9-0006gY-Tc; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:23:52 -0400 Original-Received: by iagf6 with SMTP id f6so3214722iag.0 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:23:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=f3J8+kR8h+ttuHuc2pswdykGRnn+Rqu21niG7dpO2f8=; b=Rjvawvnkb+EukvWdfTt7S9T6Lp4WXPyclagjkJ4Q7tIvMQtKR+8/HtRri4J3xKer1M T1faZQ3zRm2dKNKskyUMlcrIZqssZ3+4htzoM81jCtnYRcqm1XZPv872MYo3OW62B3s1 gkN3TAa0kqIl9Mfpa2pZE7yxhHyYllQiKuyTc= Original-Received: by 10.231.68.136 with SMTP id v8mr2695836ibi.51.1319675030992; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.12.67 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:23:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5997613E240C402C877A76C688773E65@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:145610 gmane.emacs.gnus.general:80430 Archived-At: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 4:58 AM, Drew Adams wrote: >> From: Stefan Monnier Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:38 PM >> >> Editing the From is indeed a bug that we have to fix before >> the release. > > Still not fixed. > > And the UI is now worse than before. > http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D9877 > > Users reporting a bug with `emacs -Q' should not have to specify ANYTHING= about > email methods. =A0This is nothing but a regression - reporting a bug with= `emacs > -Q' has never been a problem in past releases. =A0Why burden and confuse = users > now? > Actually, this isn't strictly true. Anyone who uses emacs as their mail client and uses a remote mail server rather than a local server, has NEVER been able to submit a bug report easily when running emacs -Q or any invocation of emacs which does not load their local configurations for that matter). The usual workflow is to save backtraces and other bug report relevant data into files, quite emacs, start emacs without -Q and then do the bug report submission. I think this is very much the central issue. If we accept that 1. Few systems have a correctly configured local MTA 2. Increasingly systems are mobile and need to use remote authenticated MTAs 3. Some (many?) users don't want to use emacs as a MUA 4. When submitting a bug report, many users are not interested or willing to configure mail just to submit the report. In some cases, they may not even understand the issues involved to provide the necessary information. then perhaps we should also consider that it might be time to add an ADDITIONAL way to submit bug reports that can avoid the complex, fragile, error prone and frequently frustrating approaches that have been proposed simply to maintain a mail based submission mechanism. By all means, continue to support submission of bug reports by mail, but ADD another mechanism which is able to work more reliably on systems which may not have email configured or use a configuration which is not available. Allow the user to select the method they want - if they select email submission and emacs needs to ask them a bunch of configuration questions, thats fine as they chose that route. Note that the suggestion to add another mechanism, such as an http based gateway has been rejected in the past on a couple of grounds. It has been suggested that RMS doesn't want this, though from looking in the archives, I would suggest he was actually more concerned about the loss of email as a way to submit bug reports, not that it can/should be the only way to submit such reports. Also, it has been suggested that this cannot be done because the bug tracker won't support it - this too is nonsense. There are plenty of http -> mail examples out there which could just as easily be applied in this situation. Note that I'm just using http as an example, other possible solutions exist and should be explored. My only suggestion is that many of the issues which have been raised wrt changes in the default mail configuration can be avoided simply by providing another means to submit bug reports. Tim --=20 Tim Cross