From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New build process? Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 23:11:28 +1000 Message-ID: References: <20110726184220.GA6390@acm.acm> <87bowg6fre.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <4E2F2084.7070001@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1311772301 26484 80.91.229.12 (27 Jul 2011 13:11:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:11:41 +0000 (UTC) Cc: david.reitter@gmail.com, dan.colascione@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 27 15:11:37 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qm3tg-0006by-Sh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:11:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58520 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qm3tg-0004FF-Av for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2011 09:11:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54161) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qm3td-0004Ez-Bq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2011 09:11:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qm3tc-0000L5-BS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2011 09:11:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:60975) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qm3tZ-0000Kk-Pc; Wed, 27 Jul 2011 09:11:29 -0400 Original-Received: by iyb14 with SMTP id 14so2212887iyb.0 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2011 06:11:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=v7Pm1WZbaZp+hw2309I+UMa91ioXMZMP7LgdsFemGL4=; b=cplG3v8adxrDPMgrZNmZkvf4W+bv1iTmXUBdGsBp5ZbM/dVh8sSbSLajCPjty47IQP FUYHyaoWjSKkOfk3kmTD/qJ1laUDLTwlwpNXDVHS46lqv3CGUd1ikpKT7GiDcsTLtHXG bY92RV3esog3Am0CKhFMhw5piNLSSyU6URVFA= Original-Received: by 10.231.193.137 with SMTP id du9mr11719ibb.136.1311772288795; Wed, 27 Jul 2011 06:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.37.76 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Jul 2011 06:11:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:142388 Archived-At: On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:03 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:58:39 +1000 >> From: Tim Cross >> Cc: rms@gnu.org, david.reitter@gmail.com, dan.colascione@gmail.com, >> =A0 =A0 =A0 emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> Still, my main pint is I don't think we should get too carried away >> trying to automate all of this. It is a common requirement and while >> some may have been caught out, it is something you should expect when >> working this close to the development layer. > > I'm actually with Richard on this one. =A0I think the need to install, > update, and use any additional commands before "./configure; make" is > a nuisance whose justification is questionable at best. =A0It's just > that I gave up on talking people into catering to us dinosaurs whose > paradise was lost, and Richard is still trying, because he's a better > man than I am. > If you believe you can do it and make it solid (which I expect you can), then go for it. I personally don't think it is necessary as we are talking about users who are choosing to interact at a low development level, which IMO is a moving target subject to change and instability. We should not set the bar too high here - put our efforts into improving emacs and not into improving the build process for those who chose to interact at this level. Yes, I guess I would be considered a dinosaur and possibly not even a very bright one. However, despite some improvements, many of the more modern approaches don't seem better. Ironically, I find many of them dis-empowering as more and more of the process becomes hidden behind ever increasing complexity, all in the name of usability. The problem is, as soon as it breaks, we are lost! Richard has certainly achieved some impressive things and I'm sure his name will be remembered long after mine is forgotten (which will likely be in about 10 minutes from now). Whether he is a better man than any of the rest of us is unknown. While I may not agree with the IT cloud, my mind is sometimes in the ideological cloud and at these times, I tend to dream that we are all of equal worth and greatness. >> Efforts were made to communicate the changes on this list (by you >> IIRC Eli) > > Actually, I think it was Glenn, not me. > Shzz - pretty poor recolleciton stats for me then - two fails out of two attempts. Really need to consider a better quality of red wine! >> My objection with trying to automate or eliminate this simple step >> is that the solution can often be worse than the problem > > The solution is, quite obviously, to have the configure script in the > repo. =A0No, don't answer that. > Wouldn't dream of it :) Tim