From: Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: cyd@stupidchicken.com, ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org,
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
PJ Weisberg <pj@irregularexpressions.net>,
larsi@gnus.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
miles@gnu.org
Subject: Re: smtp crap
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 08:21:41 +1100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAC=50j9kYZHq4GbYMCh-usQbbV-Z-NiKfcwvVWYRPR_JAPnEyw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20FFD44DE7DF42C78FDDA3EF06397A78@us.oracle.com>
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 3:24 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
>> > But MOST importantly, what about reporting bugs with `emacs -Q'?
>> >
>> > That is the real problem here, and the one that you keep
>> > ignoring. Instead, you keep focusing on the problem of
>> > customization, which is, relatively speaking, no big deal
>> > (assuming you finish fixing the repeated-interrogation bugs).
>>
>> No, that's not the real problem.
>
> To me it is. It is a more important problem than how to help users configure
> Emacs to use email.
>
>> There are two problems:
>> (1) What should Emacs do when the user asks it to send an email?
>> (2) What should Emacs do when the user asks it to report a bug?
>
> Agreed.
>
>> This series of questions is appropriate in scenario 1, but not in
>> scenario 2.
>
> I would say that _some email configuration UI_ is appropriate for #1, but not
> for #2.
>
> But "some config UI" does not imply "this series of questions".
>
> I don't really care too much (personally) about what UI is used for #1. But
> (FWIW) my advice would be for Emacs to (a) not _initiate_ that UI but only
> provide it upon _user request_ and (b) probably not offer it as a sequence of
> questions (e.g. wizard) at all, but rather as a form (e.g. checkboxes) to fill
> in. Look at how other apps help users configure email, for some inspiration...
>
>> (Especially with `emacs -Q', which causes an already-configured
>> Emacs to explicitly ignore its configuration.)
>
> Exactly. This is important. It should be the starting point.
>
> The fact that the UI interrogation-sequence-from-hell was (initially) completely
> backward (see the bugs, some of which have been fixed), and that it is still,
> well, weird, reflects the fact that this was NOT the starting point, even though
> the configuration dialog is initiated by the `report-emacs-bug' code.
>
>> The fact that the two scenarios are related is an implementation
>> detail of report-emacs-bug.
>
> It might be currently, but it should not be.
>
>> The argument Drew is making would disappear instantly if
>> report-emacs-bug sent an HTTP POST request, for instance.
>
> Yes. But in that case Drew would argue that we should still also let users
> report bugs using email. On this I support Richard's stance: users should be
> able to report bugs using email. AND they should be able to do so using HTTP.
>
> We should make it as easy as possible for a user to report an Emacs bug,
> especially using `emacs -Q'. That should be the priority - the rest is
> secondary, IMHO. And yes, this _should_ be a no-brainer.
>
>
>
>
Totally agree - address the issue of bug reporting and most of this
kludgy mess goes away.
and please, DO NOT jump through all sorts of hoops with -Q to enable
'special' configuration settings to exist - the whole idea of -Q is
that it is a base, well known and repeatable configuration. Once you
start making exceptions that whole premise is lost. Using -Q should
allow me to have exactly the same configuration as someone else who
also runs -Q - it should not be 'the same configuration except for
....' If this means that users cannot submit bugs using emacs as their
MUA when running -Q it does not mean we need to hack at custom or make
exceptions - it means that email is not the right solution for
submitting bug messages when running under -Q. By all means, allow it
for other contexts, even make it the default for people who do
configure emacs as their MUA, but not when running under -Q and not
for those who do not configure emacs as a their MUA.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2011-10-11 21:21 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 94+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2011-10-08 2:02 smtp crap Miles Bader
2011-10-08 4:14 ` Chong Yidong
2011-10-08 6:17 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-08 6:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-08 7:03 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-08 13:47 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-10-08 14:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-09 14:50 ` Sivaram Neelakantan
2011-10-09 23:58 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-10 11:19 ` Richard Riley
2011-10-08 14:38 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-09 5:53 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-10 21:43 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-10 22:05 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-10 22:08 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-10-10 22:12 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 3:40 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 5:38 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 4:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 5:05 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 7:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 12:40 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 13:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 15:42 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 17:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 18:51 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 19:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 19:46 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-10-11 21:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 22:24 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2011-10-12 1:12 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-12 13:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-12 14:30 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-14 13:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 20:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 14:53 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 16:00 ` PJ Weisberg
2011-10-11 16:24 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 21:21 ` Tim Cross [this message]
2011-10-11 22:00 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 22:41 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-11 22:54 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 22:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 23:11 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-12 0:01 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-12 8:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-12 14:04 ` Jason Rumney
2011-10-12 14:33 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-12 1:30 ` Chong Yidong
2011-10-12 3:22 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-12 4:50 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-12 6:33 ` joakim
2011-10-12 8:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-12 10:24 ` joakim
2011-10-12 11:32 ` Juanma Barranquero
2011-10-12 9:12 ` Lennart Borgman
2011-10-12 14:16 ` Jason Rumney
2011-10-12 14:34 ` Lennart Borgman
2011-10-12 14:47 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-12 15:21 ` Lennart Borgman
2011-10-12 11:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
2011-10-12 8:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-08 8:17 ` David Engster
2011-10-08 8:52 ` Bastien
2011-10-08 12:36 ` Miles Bader
2011-10-08 14:10 ` Harry Putnam
2011-10-10 21:38 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-10 22:06 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-10-11 2:09 ` Glenn Morris
2011-10-11 5:10 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 3:38 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-10 22:08 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 0:34 ` Miles Bader
2011-10-11 3:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 4:20 ` Miles Bader
2011-10-11 4:41 ` chad
2011-10-11 5:34 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-11 5:03 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 5:38 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 5:38 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 5:38 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-26 17:58 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-26 18:14 ` Adam Sjøgren
2011-10-26 21:48 ` chad
2011-10-26 22:32 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-26 23:13 ` chad
2011-10-27 0:08 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-27 2:51 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-10-27 0:23 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-27 1:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-09 1:28 ` Michael Welsh Duggan
2011-10-09 6:06 ` Miles Bader
2011-10-09 14:55 ` Michael Welsh Duggan
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2011-10-08 2:08 Miles Bader
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
List information: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to='CAC=50j9kYZHq4GbYMCh-usQbbV-Z-NiKfcwvVWYRPR_JAPnEyw@mail.gmail.com' \
--to=theophilusx@gmail.com \
--cc=cyd@stupidchicken.com \
--cc=ding@gnus.org \
--cc=drew.adams@oracle.com \
--cc=eliz@gnu.org \
--cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
--cc=larsi@gnus.org \
--cc=miles@gnu.org \
--cc=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca \
--cc=pj@irregularexpressions.net \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).