From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU ELPA package discoverability Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:40:08 +1000 Message-ID: References: <35DBF02E-44D7-41E5-A217-7D6EC84ED221@icloud.com> <4e937898-ae46-710a-cbca-e452a1156fa1@yandex.ru> <2e630dc7-ba1d-e4c9-74b3-4da976db1e82@yandex.ru> <83blmdxus4.fsf@gnu.org> <831rn8vy6o.fsf@gnu.org> <83lflevju7.fsf@gnu.org> <83eer6t80v.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000032263605a699cfc5" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="122499"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , Emacs developers To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 27 06:40:58 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jdnsA-000VnD-GW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 27 May 2020 06:40:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59000 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdns9-0005xW-J8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 27 May 2020 00:40:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35412) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdnrb-0005Ia-Ks for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 May 2020 00:40:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oo1-xc2e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2e]:35364) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdnra-0003rD-8m; Wed, 27 May 2020 00:40:23 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oo1-xc2e.google.com with SMTP id c187so4746306ooc.2; Tue, 26 May 2020 21:40:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=k0u/7kNPSlT7EiN7J0vNGqGOWlxXb02RRAGKi86pMrA=; b=pXvS3vlKlktMOSaIDXGHahOuwLACH2ZssxEZHJeR/lP9OoB5lNAO1atjxDKQfPCsrL 335+giHI+2InoZ2OpGuvOiPkJFKz2+AYWgeR7QrtKFXpr93L6tE85Hi6VPZEmioIfU9k kWYu02icNAHP3CEq5xrUE1NvmlmEbJVnLo7PPLxLiFQvksbajJz5NAvclaNRP28qnh6x xQ3wUtvTO7JFHcl+xaJvAd23eYHoTGzCDWU5tnat/Ir6NekVgkZ+/ryZ9E/3TKDt+Wip tI9Yvnad2R0+HXPw+iVI6gcftQwQWenYFkM/d/VwyACByudPQX+XwzcM4czmMeYnlUY3 2KHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=k0u/7kNPSlT7EiN7J0vNGqGOWlxXb02RRAGKi86pMrA=; b=dv2GKNJQ4GJhtIOAYYu1+ey2iX5CPNPAaT/76HqOEjU/4gNBun9w9oq3os8pvEnzP9 JhUqEDrD/cSA2JsxSQOjemk93EGEm/yiEKyM1bvHPxzOPjTfMhyEkJXBgT1Foj5aO2n9 FfYNxZBzHi62TVlWN0MNlFX+x4M8Z9VaRTVD6s52Qb/UVN0D2M+JYSQdOHkxtrR3fcMK Cdg0P77AnUJ4fbHrQbUoJHQBAWtXHanTwS9NQiDiH5MEV8220pVSFbA9IlRJW0gceleS MSPbmQOSOJ0jrWyPltnDBCYz0dZp7ybQF2qbVsUgSF2iAS+5WD5rYklnF2Ghq9/lao4K WJdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533lyNRmtOro85zNylCXSxlVmJPMuRrqgcj5zoB91t4FMWop1bI0 FJ9NFzyfEXsyDYx+T8kGYPeMWTI2Hl+ex1m7OLvxDppz1bI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzuhHlzdQO0ocRC1n/faJCRNnUwMmTO/xY1ONSz3Wrq0UyAYGtmBEcsMQf9/uesKqoYKmbUWOrcgXzNSM26rxc= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:7ac2:: with SMTP id a185mr1738393ooc.84.1590554419929; Tue, 26 May 2020 21:40:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83eer6t80v.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2e; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-oo1-xc2e.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251494 Archived-At: --00000000000032263605a699cfc5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 12:40, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Tim Cross > > Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 11:06:37 +1000 > > Cc: Richard Stallman , Emacs developers < > Emacs-devel@gnu.org> > > > > > That would certainly be a good start. However, is that a maintainable > approach. > > > > That's what we have now. IMO information for contributors should > > reflect the present state of affairs. > > > > Except it isn't. There is nothing in the README about how to obtain > write/push rights to the repository or that > > it is the same rights as you need to add code to the Emacs repository. > > Which I agreed should be added. What is your point in reiterating > that? > I apologise - I thought you were talking about what is in the README as in the process is documented. > > The above was in response to a different argument: that describing how > to get write access now is in your opinion not TRT, because that might > change in the future. Let's keep the argument going forward, not > backward or in circles, please. > I wasn't saying that it wasn't the right thing or way to do it, merely asking if it is a maintainable approach. > > > If and when the situation changes, we will update the information. It > > is not useful to worry about issues that didn't yet materialize, and > > are anybody's guess when they will. > > > > I disagree with this approach. All it does is maintain the status quo. > > It's okay to disagree. Status quo is what needs to be described, > because documentation needs to be accurate. > Yes, understanding the current status quo is important, but not necessarily just for documentation purposes. The high level objective is to make ELPA a more comprehensive repository of elisp packages that satisfy GNU project goals and objectives, enabling easier discovery of said packages without needing to add 3rd party repositories that may include packages which do not further the GNU project's goals. Much of what I wrote regarding the lack of documentation was about how this lack of documentation is an impediment to developers wanting to add packages to ELPA. Documentation is only part of the story. > > > As demonstrated by this thread and others, the current situation is not > working. GNU ELPA has relatively few > > packages. > > Because the procedure to get write access is not described? > No, this lack of information was simply one example of one aspect of factors which discourage developers from submitting packages for inclusion in ELPA. It was mentioned in response to a comment that said the information developers needed was in the ELPA README file and I listed it as an example of how the README failed to answer the sort of questions a developer may have when trying to decide whether to publish a package in ELPA or some other repository, like MELPA. > > > To make it maintainable, we need to design a solution which minimises > the time burden on those > > few volunteers prepared to put in the effort. Improvements and change is > something which needs to be > > driven. > > Talking about what "we need" to do doesn't get anything done, > unfortunately. Frankly, that's my summary of everything you wrote on > the subject till now. It helps nothing to lecture what needs to be > done when no one is doing it. > Well then I think your summary is poor. I have made suggestions and offered to do things to try and move matters forward and received no response. As I wrote on the 25th may - I'm willing to try and assist here if possible. As a starting point, would > it be worthwhile starting some discussion threads in emacs-devel for each > question. I could then try and collate the responses into a single document > which could be a starting point. For example, I would probably start with > the question "What criteria should we use to determine if a module, > library, feature etc go into GNU Emacs core, or GNU ELPA? > What do others think? I could also have a thread asking for questions > which should be answered or things which should be documented with respect > to ELPA. > > I don't know. A proposal was put on the table, but some of the > > important stakeholders didn't yet respond to it. > > > > How long ago? Perhaps that proposal needs to be res erected? Any > proposal which is just thrown out into > > the ether is rarely going to achieve anything. It usually needs a > champion that will drive the proposal until an > > eventual resolution (which may be for or against - either are valid and > provide a means to move forward). > > > > Do you have a copy of this proposal and are you able to share it? > > It's all in the archives, please look there. It wasn't long ago, just > a couple of weeks, so it should be no problem to look it up. > I will try to find it. Any clue as to the subject line? -- regards, Tim -- Tim Cross --00000000000032263605a699cfc5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 12:40, Eli Zar= etskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
<= /div>
> From: Tim Cross= <theophilusx= @gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 11:06:37 +1000
> Cc: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>, Emacs developers <Emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>
>=C2=A0 > That would certainly be a good start. However, is that a ma= intainable approach.
>
>=C2=A0 That's what we have now.=C2=A0 IMO information for contribut= ors should
>=C2=A0 reflect the present state of affairs.
>
> Except it isn't. There is nothing in the README about how to obtai= n write/push rights to the repository or that
> it is the same rights as you need to add code to the Emacs repository.=

Which I agreed should be added.=C2=A0 What is your point in reiterating
that?

I apologise - I thought you were = talking about what is in the README as in the process is documented.=C2=A0= =C2=A0

The above was in response to a different argument: that describing how
to get write access now is in your opinion not TRT, because that might
change in the future.=C2=A0 Let's keep the argument going forward, not<= br> backward or in circles, please.

I wasn&= #39;t saying that it wasn't the right thing or way to do it, merely ask= ing if it is a maintainable approach.=C2=A0=C2=A0

>=C2=A0 If and when the situation changes, we will update the informatio= n.=C2=A0 It
>=C2=A0 is not useful to worry about issues that didn't yet material= ize, and
>=C2=A0 are anybody's guess when they will.
>
> I disagree with this approach. All it does is maintain the status quo.=

It's okay to disagree.=C2=A0 Status quo is what needs to be described,<= br> because documentation needs to be accurate.

=
Yes, understanding the current status quo is important, but not necess= arily just for documentation purposes. The high level objective is to make = ELPA a more comprehensive repository of elisp packages that satisfy GNU pro= ject goals and objectives, enabling easier discovery of said packages witho= ut needing to add 3rd party repositories that may include packages which do= not further the GNU project's=C2=A0goals. Much of what I wrote regardi= ng the lack of documentation was about how this lack of documentation is an= impediment to developers wanting to add packages to ELPA. Documentation is= only part of the story.=C2=A0=C2=A0

> As demonstrated by this thread and others, the current situation is no= t working. GNU ELPA has relatively few
> packages.

Because the procedure to get write access is not described?

No, this lack of information was simply one example of= one aspect of factors which discourage developers from submitting packages= for inclusion in ELPA. It was mentioned in response to a comment that said= the information developers needed was in the ELPA README file and I listed= it as an example of how the README failed to answer the sort of questions = a developer may have when trying to decide whether to publish a package in = ELPA or some other repository, like MELPA.=C2=A0=C2=A0

> To make it maintainable, we need to design a solution which minimises = the time burden on those
> few volunteers prepared to put in the effort. Improvements and change = is something which needs to be
> driven.

Talking about what "we need" to do doesn't get anything done,=
unfortunately.=C2=A0 Frankly, that's my summary of everything you wrote= on
the subject till now.=C2=A0 It helps nothing to lecture what needs to be done when no one is doing it.

Well then= I think your summary is poor. I have made suggestions and offered to do th= ings to try and move matters forward and received no response.=C2=A0=C2=A0<= /div>

As I wrote on the 25th may -

<= div>
I'm willing to tr= y and assist here if possible. As a starting point, would it be worthwhile = starting some discussion threads in emacs-devel for each question. I could = then try and collate the responses into a single document which could be a = starting point. For example, I would probably start with the question "= ;What criteria should we use to determine if a module, library, feature etc= go into GNU Emacs core, or GNU ELPA?=C2=A0
What do others think? I coul= d also have a thread asking for questions which should be answered or thing= s which should be documented with respect to ELPA.=C2=A0
=


>=C2=A0 I don't know.=C2=A0 A proposal was put on the table, but som= e of the
>=C2=A0 important stakeholders didn't yet respond to it.
>
> How long ago? Perhaps that proposal needs to be res erected? Any propo= sal which is just thrown out into
> the ether is rarely going to achieve anything. It usually needs a cham= pion that will drive the proposal until an
> eventual resolution (which may be for or against - either are valid an= d provide a means to move forward).
>
> Do you have a copy of this proposal and are you able to share it?

It's all in the archives, please look there.=C2=A0 It wasn't long a= go, just
a couple of weeks, so it should be no problem to look it up.

I will try to find it. Any clue a= s to the subject line?

--
regards,

T= im

--
Tim Cross

--00000000000032263605a699cfc5--