From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs popular again with a video Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 01:36:07 +1000 Message-ID: References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <838shu61mm.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004c1b1f05a59d75d2" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="77650"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: colinetnathan98@gmail.com, =?UTF-8?Q?Andreas_R=C3=B6hler?= , Richard Stallman , arthur miller , Emacs developers To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 14 17:37:30 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZFvM-000K5c-Lz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 17:37:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42962 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZFvL-0007b7-OI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 11:37:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52778) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZFuJ-0006NW-Cg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 11:36:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x32f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f]:34715) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZFuI-0003tY-3x; Thu, 14 May 2020 11:36:23 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id 72so2712469otu.1; Thu, 14 May 2020 08:36:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SNpFuUpF3hXMsLO+CMZ1mt0BxpMUPTUSNcFjEcV+zUE=; b=kgRDT1zcEiyE0vPKKkGBt7Y3C8WqJOznroN582HqpCJfBLeMmwDO5BQoizJMB0w1yc CQpBA6FvYoOGllBMEO80ptecs7HeGW3aw3KabfYkmNbT1VomM1k4qZdJ1bm/nYDnJ1eE 2UvLzl4fN/XxVGcnXY1CbuQLFFiUrYJNAB/Tcy611PLlU1HC7Ybk60ydBbJrS8uew2R2 DZqZJnKYxKKFuX7yqroe6GK1zoD6BPtab++PlXyAwzViYpuSIwWcPHpTp58xYapE6dtm kJh/fb1EW+j5A6NgBPvNLbX3rSB3ovgKQbauRJsn8P/Util5zIjwyiaPXHNFa+pIMCWr I7WA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SNpFuUpF3hXMsLO+CMZ1mt0BxpMUPTUSNcFjEcV+zUE=; b=FiYMW/vtKBc6247zNGSIMMPpfspT+hglax8S1PJjdPeLf5GMg9Yj5FCJyE9jRtCnaR NFECTHg97JhVCoSJbuNR+Twwhn0KGi7ldHbDOWNhD/wBlTDDpy4mDMTXz16EsvD4oOJ4 waCQrLI79UUOP7L2BaQWFUomKla46kk0A6+Qs3Wx1BhQXp6ozzrS3vhzUhlRyEpdRYW4 4//BwWrLhUQTzy4x/zJ27LztZd21tHuYu4EXjxFLp9ZNyoZL1GU0GXFWQy92g+Kfb+4+ 5RC/YJYVR9bJpYdXzNWjWHDwG3/9bRvlXbj5YgnDs+dGWNR926u4I6DZs8UZFbswhsoW yokQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531sSwSe6msLdnhVEru9C20ulFAgdYbZB65G5FpEwaj6tyQKogJ+ vRSLd6aBRhaVfVg/T5sqwSe6nm0c6ZGEMNx3AjyTNw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxBqsjkl3neP3F3KvSQMyAMwXQEwuuXHj1IBRAOc4zLbqeF3eG8d2ocEaosIqueRdgWz9Jz/lKBnLkZcWLaP1k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1d99:: with SMTP id y25mr3747263oti.235.1589470579922; Thu, 14 May 2020 08:36:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <838shu61mm.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x32f.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250256 Archived-At: --0000000000004c1b1f05a59d75d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 15 May 2020 at 00:19, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Tim Cross > > Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 17:38:15 +1000 > > Cc: colinetnathan98@gmail.com, > > Andreas R=C3=B6hler , > > Richard Stallman , Emacs developers > > > > To an extent, the editing aspects of Emacs are not particularly > > interesting and most of the really great editing features of Emacs > > have been incorporated into other editors anyway > > I would disagree, at least to some extent. It is true that many Emacs > features are available today elsewhere, but some surprisingly still > aren't. For example, what about transposing words or lines with one > or 2 keystrokes? > I'm sure we will find some examples, though the ones you cited are available in a number of editors (for example VS Code C-t =3D letter, Shift-Ctl-t =3D word and Alt-Ctl-T for line transposing Many editors have been inspired by and have borrowed/copied from Emacs. Features which use to be only seen in Emacs are now seen in many other editors (column editing, rectangle cut and paste, transposing letters, words and lines, multiple cursors, etc. Most editors have some form of plugin or extention mechanism and people have ported most of the useful features from Emacs. (though their extension/plugin mechanism is typically much less flexible than Emacs). There are certainly some things Emacs still does better with respect to editing, like editing of binary data or even ascii art etc. It is rare when I've used another editor and missed a feature that I've not found the feature is available - I may need to add a plugin or define a key binding or define a macro (as in keyboard macros not lisp macro). However, in general, I find these things which Emacs still does better to be really fringe areas which I rarely use or need. The majority of advanced editing features provided by emacs are available in most editors with a programming orientation. In many of these editors, other things which are slightly difficult to get working consistently in Emacs are available 'out of the box'. For example, getting font ligatures and colour emojii working in VS Code is trivial. In Emacs, it is harder and varies depending on which platform you are on. VS Code is probably a good example. While I still prefer Emacs, if I'm really honest, from a purely editing perspective, VS Code is as good and feature rich. Where it fails is in the ease of extensibility and ability to customize to fit how I like to work - with VS Code, I need to adjust more to how VS Code wants to work, but when it comes to just writing source code, they are both pretty equivalent. --=20 regards, Tim -- Tim Cross --0000000000004c1b1f05a59d75d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, 15 May 2020 at 00:19, Eli Za= retskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
=
> From: Tim Cros= s <theophilus= x@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 17:38:15 +1000
> Cc: col= inetnathan98@gmail.com,
>=C2=A0 Andreas R=C3=B6hler <andreas.roehler@online.de>,
>=C2=A0 Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>, Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>
> To an extent, the editing aspects of Emacs are not particularly
> interesting and most of the really great editing features of Emacs
> have been incorporated into other editors anyway

I would disagree, at least to some extent.=C2=A0 It is true that many Emacs=
features are available today elsewhere, but some surprisingly still
aren't.=C2=A0 For example, what about transposing words or lines with o= ne
or 2 keystrokes?

I'm sure we will find s= ome examples, though the ones you cited are available in a number of editor= s (for example VS Code C-t =3D letter, Shift-Ctl-t =3D word and Alt-Ctl-T f= or line transposing Many editors have been inspired by and have borrowed/co= pied from Emacs. Features which use to be only seen in Emacs are now seen i= n many other editors (column editing, rectangle cut and paste, transposing = letters, words and lines, multiple cursors, etc. Most editors have some for= m of plugin or extention mechanism and people have ported most of the usefu= l features from Emacs. (though their extension/plugin mechanism is typicall= y much less flexible than Emacs).

There are c= ertainly some things Emacs still does better with respect to editing, like = editing of binary data or even ascii art etc. It is rare when I've used= another editor and missed a feature that I've not found the feature is= available - I may need to add a plugin or define a key binding or define a= macro (as in keyboard macros not lisp macro). However, in general, I find = these things which Emacs still does better to be really fringe areas which = I rarely use or need. The majority of advanced editing features provided by= emacs are available in most editors with a programming orientation. In man= y of these editors, other things which are slightly difficult to get workin= g consistently in Emacs are available 'out of the box'. For example= , getting font ligatures and colour emojii working in VS Code is trivial. I= n Emacs, it is harder and varies depending on which platform you are on.

VS Code is probably a good example. While I sti= ll prefer Emacs, if I'm really honest, from a purely editing perspectiv= e, VS Code is as good and feature rich. Where it fails is in the ease of ex= tensibility and ability to customize to fit how I like to work - with VS Co= de, I need to adjust more to how VS Code wants to work, but when it comes t= o just writing source code, they are both pretty equivalent.


--
regards,

Tim

--
Tim Cross

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