From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 23:57:18 +1000 Message-ID: References: <8wXYP4GY9hwW-9mYv6_LGMETZ8Vz3Ob1Bec6yh6kPT7yxjTkxA3V6dXY4ELra9tYiJUxJmgXKSIEX4w8HFiPRoeGVSQHDSoBVy1voj1e3Qo=@protonmail.com> <87wo6h1kwl.fsf@emailmessageidheader.nil> <83k12hgt43.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000070dbcd05a354b2cc" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="80268"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Bob Newell , Emacs developers To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 15 15:58:37 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jOiYn-000Kje-7k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 15:58:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50494 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jOiYm-00066e-9g for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 09:58:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41043) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jOiXo-0005OR-4D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 09:57:37 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jOiXl-0008Dq-VC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 09:57:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]:35527) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jOiXj-0008CY-Cx; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 09:57:31 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id b7so10932232oic.2; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 06:57:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0K1Z14QIQQxNnVSMhSaUqyNp0JI38tIjcGAAOSIIFFY=; b=Zi5ggue01/qjQ36AY4Nts5JjaWMD0Tqy7VEwlJ/oufADoYww2mOscf+6m1oWUgk7H/ jbYimYc9uRcKE5jJDT7WLQ7/ZoUKTfdFbCFYW041PB3uaEfoeJj7qVUM/55/fVTNPxHN mBIZsnPbICZMvhFwyOV6kfwU/cQpDIZJy68uIXwd25ST+7/8sBE4369s5tFscPGcCfGx r003dZSP+lqIqwj73O7aC4+EVyunoQaBaUVbjL7vBUivppPpVWLmcWYFpbaR53BW1a+x iVIQgzGtp7a2vWed7S/YOpCLQMbFTU6p7gh+i1R2PDc5GiRFqu9c3/6PVHATz7ojvG4b t+vw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0K1Z14QIQQxNnVSMhSaUqyNp0JI38tIjcGAAOSIIFFY=; b=a809WAJHT11Tc9O3/VoZvVbkdwovZnKpedFxTIzUl2Q6W1Ntj4YD6acXGFlXh2zFtl FYzxJiE+3PQDDKL19qOJrjrYUyCotXBFM0eLS1L6VEpVbCsg8GeTKXh3VbAX3mNYdbn0 25MXvP8GaTFKtbhxC4RP0+N5jmLI+13JLjhAN70IY/EJ0xz5KCETK0HGjHnOFfG+084u xf1K7pX6mfx4nnigbIGfatIn4rDN6hgJUqQ9FYB2hPliat2wCOh5bEt8XkHOlkpBmorV UlPKYdaK73bFQfEvOLuXlPSCreUMfyDOW8Kz+lfr/omPxLVLn6wnZLf/+/K42o9DUT2A QsmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZTVJL3xUb8lq0UxZkO0wH7DF2KFgO+ra14QnA/KP769ea6lAZ+ iKLeQW5Z6Nekk0A1U4PfTl3pNGJc0zrE9XRnydfiNw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL++gQ19OJNobFps8bNknZg7HX/JMpkeOJicnm4cAujGJNhfUDUhfAaGBoJn1sXX6xvYl57/gTOSJKc9MJUI3A= X-Received: by 2002:a54:438c:: with SMTP id u12mr19816272oiv.47.1586959049872; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 06:57:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83k12hgt43.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247000 Archived-At: --00000000000070dbcd05a354b2cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I think the challenge would be in coming up with an approach which won't make the terminal (non-gui) version drift from the GUI version too much. Changing the button styles etc in the GUI menu and perhaps updating toolbar icons etc is probably not too hard, but you cannot do much with things like 'buttons' in widgets etc (such as those used with customize) without having to have completely different code for rendering in GUI and rendering in terminal. This would potentially blow out maintenance and create two code bases to manage and lets face it, one is more than enough. I think part of the reason the GUI menus and toolbar might look dated to many is that nearly all experienced and long-term users I know turn off the menus and toolbar, so never see them. It has been years since I've used either. For me, the only 'buttons' I see are the widget style buttons and these are not really buttons - they are really text 'fake' buttons. I would also be a little concerned about impact any attempt to change these might have on performance (we already have quite a long thread about rendering performance). Just my 2 cents.... On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 16:35, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Bob Newell > > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 17:35:06 -1000 > > > > You might want to try Notepad on Windows 10 or something. > > Which won't help, because the Windows 10 look and feel doesn't include > rounded corners of windows, at least not by default. > > -- regards, Tim -- Tim Cross --00000000000070dbcd05a354b2cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think the challenge would be in coming up with an a= pproach which won't make the terminal (non-gui) version drift from the = GUI version too much. Changing the button styles etc in the GUI menu and pe= rhaps updating toolbar icons etc is probably not too hard, but you cannot d= o much with things like 'buttons' in widgets etc (such as those use= d with customize) without having to have completely different code for rend= ering in GUI and rendering in terminal. This would potentially blow out mai= ntenance and create two code bases to manage and lets face it, one is more = than enough.

I think part of the reason the G= UI menus and toolbar might look dated to many is that nearly all experience= d and long-term users I know turn off the menus and toolbar, so never see t= hem. It has been years since I've used either. For me, the only 'bu= ttons' I see are the widget style buttons and these are not really butt= ons - they are really text 'fake' buttons. I would also be a little= concerned about impact any attempt to change these might have on performan= ce (we already have quite a long thread about rendering performance).
<= /div>

Just my 2 cents....


=
On Wed, 15= Apr 2020 at 16:35, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@= gnu.org> wrote:
> From: Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net>
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 17:35:06 -1000
>
> You might want to try Notepad on Windows 10 or something.

Which won't help, because the Windows 10 look and feel doesn't incl= ude
rounded corners of windows, at least not by default.



--
regards,

Tim=

--
Tim Cross

--00000000000070dbcd05a354b2cc--