From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changing the default for `send-mail-function' Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 11:06:42 +1000 Message-ID: References: <4E079767.30601@harpegolden.net> <87vcvmtc7z.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de> <87liwgg3vv.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87y60elo83.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <4E131B9C.4020806@swipnet.se> <87liwc1k08.fsf@gmail.com> <34F70A20-5300-4F2C-A271-C928F67F27EF@mit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1310000828 8441 80.91.229.12 (7 Jul 2011 01:07:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 01:07:08 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 07 03:07:04 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qed3V-0004VF-KB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2011 03:07:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46877 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qed3U-0004uc-3l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 21:07:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46237) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qed3F-0004uE-Kh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 21:06:46 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qed3E-0007Ox-9O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 21:06:45 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.212.41]:53176) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qed3D-0007Ot-Ut for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 21:06:44 -0400 Original-Received: by vws4 with SMTP id 4so475330vws.0 for ; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:06:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iFcXoZXZVsasF/kbg7Y57VJ4Rm5ppi+98zJfA0uaFtk=; b=qqrMosvpmud7uyJTYVY//G0HyqJLrlO+2Ye+cfcK2ZczpcB4UqZU1KR3Nr5G9HHz9T XrF7SGV4X3s1IQCwgBlz8o28wBF8NqGO4qBw2QczPHQlR5aYC/zKhADj7Kxlx5bScpde PMUQvY+f5IRBG55qVD41oZckKfz/QNPuYM3b0= Original-Received: by 10.220.195.77 with SMTP id eb13mr72441vcb.251.1310000802969; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.220.84.202 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Jul 2011 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.212.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:141712 Archived-At: On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: > =A0 =A0 =A0I wouldn't be surprised if the gnu.org > =A0 =A0login servers were in the top 100 by usage of such machines in the > =A0 =A0world. > > If it is useful for the FSF, it is probably useful for many other > organizations. > > You consider this kind of system a "niche legacy", so you will tend > not to notice them, but that doesn't mean they are few in number. > Each one has many users, and its sysadmins may not be Emacs users. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > President, Free Software Foundation > 51 Franklin St > Boston MA 02110 > USA > www.fsf.org =A0www.gnu.org > Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. > =A0Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ > > I'm not sure the multi-user issue is worth considering. Every multi-user system I've ever seen has a working local MTA and I suspect it is reasonable to assume this is the normal situation for multi-user platforms due to the nature of the platform and the fact such systems tend to make more extensive use of mail for monitoring and administration purposes etc. To what extent they represent a 'niche' or edge-case etc is largely irrelevant to the question of changing the default for the send-mail-function. The whole question still seems to come down to two opposing opinions - on one side, we have those who believe that the MAJORITY of local MTA configurations are broken and therefore, we should move to a default of smtpmail, plus those who feel this is the more modern approach adopted by most other mail clients and one that tends to fit better with a model of computing that focuses on mobility and connectivity from multiple networks (with different firewalls, smtp servers and authentication requirements etc) versus an alternative perspective who question this assumption and who are concerned that many people who currently don't have to worry about issues associated with configuring email will now be forced to and in some cases, this could be difficult as such information may not be readily available - at the very least, it is a change which could force people to do additional tasks requiring additional information which they previously did not have to do. Changing default settings is something that needs to be supported by evidence and not just opinion. So far, there does not seem to be any evidence to justify the change, only opinions. I have not observed an increase in bugs relating to mail configuration or requests for help to configure mail or frustration regarding the current default. Perhaps it is too difficult to acquire the necessary evidence? I do think the mobile computing issue is possibly the most compelling of the arguments. However, I'm not sure what percentage of emacs users are on GNU/Linux laptops and as I understand the proposal, the default for Windows is going to stay with the mailclient version (don't know about OSX). but I believe few OSX installations use a local MTA anyway. At any rate, without some facts, I doubt this can be resolved. We really need to know some numbers. What is the percentage of emacs users on GNU/Linux and how many are running on laptops? If the current default needs change, why are we not seeing an increase in bug reports or requests for help or complaints regarding the existing default? Tim