From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: more on starttls, gnutls-cli and using tls for mail Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:48:11 +1000 Message-ID: References: <20039.8838.116211.694328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <8762m0n5qi.fsf@red-bean.com> <87ipq0k0q0.fsf@red-bean.com> <87fwl4nqu8.fsf@gmail.com> <87ippzf7jx.fsf@gmail.com> <87pqk4i03k.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1313621322 8960 80.91.229.12 (17 Aug 2011 22:48:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:48:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Vijay Lakshminarayanan , Leo , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Karl Fogel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 18 00:48:37 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QtouY-00075e-0R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 00:48:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54275 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QtouX-0004ag-Hw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:48:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48385) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QtouU-0004ZI-Ij for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:48:31 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QtouN-0006yP-1M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:48:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f175.google.com ([209.85.210.175]:44886) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QtouM-0006xt-UW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:48:23 -0400 Original-Received: by iyn15 with SMTP id 15so2121098iyn.6 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:48:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=e7UtltH6JoTkJqM2ya8do1r6CUvsVrwUoNQc0tzJ7bE=; b=IPmD4sqtJdN8Vo9aIc/RjKK2Jd9YjkfuxRFPmlY6cMmRpyU5NzJll5lu5duWYrxH6Z IOj0iHQkgrTfHf3xnKx5ibUM46A0PuIFRD0XwuRyd+Ma/zMTorL6yg5rAsN5gvEY60z3 rtLa6IGrI9XGKisaD8OtJOlTVtvZ8nBmqzPz0= Original-Received: by 10.231.74.13 with SMTP id s13mr3098815ibj.78.1313621291177; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.16.199 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:48:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87pqk4i03k.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.175 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:143386 Archived-At: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Karl Fogel wrote: > Tim Cross writes: >>OK, thanks Jijay. So, it would seem the use case is possibly something >>specific google has done to detect possible abuse of an email account. >>I've not run into this myself, but at least this gives one possible >>data point on why this additional complexity may be required. > > There's another issue too: > > Although "smtp.gmail.com" is the One True Server for sending mails > through Google [1], the account you log in with there could be a regular > Google/Gmail account (call this type "A") or it could be a Google Apps > For Your Domain (type "B") account. > > These are rather different beasts. =A0While you could set up your "A" > account such that it's able to send mail with a From address that is > really of type "B", I had some experiences -- clean reproduction recipes > are hard to create, unfortunately -- that indicated there could be authn > problems or being-blocked-as-spam problems if I sent from type "A" > repeatedly with a From address of type "B". =A0But these problems go away > if I authenticate to smtp.gmail.com as user "B" whenever sending mail > with an address of type "B". > > Again, in practice it's impossible to get definitive answers to what the > rules are. =A0Running experiments is very time consuming, it's hard to > isolate variables, and Google doesn't have the staff to answer in-depth > technical questions (though random members of the public sometimes do -- > see [2]). > > Essentially, running one's own email server has become too hard > nowadays, but if one uses an email server hosted by an organization > large enough to deal competently with the running an email server in the > modern era, then by definition that organization will be too large to > answer individual questions. =A0The problem is systemic; I'm not blaming > Google -- I'm glad they offer the smtp.gmail.com service. > > So I have to get Emacs to switch sender authn creds on an email-by-email > basis. =A0Recent smtpmail.el changes have made this harder, not easier. > > -Karl > > [1] The reason I send mail through Google is because if I use my own > =A0 =A0server, it can be difficult to avoid the server being blacklisted > =A0 =A0even when that server is not the origin of any spam. =A0See > =A0 =A0http://www.rants.org/2010/05/26/email-blacklisting-considered-harm= ful/ > > [2] http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/gmail/thread?tid=3D45781946ea84= 651e > Thanks Karl. It seems there are use cases for using different authenticated users based on the from/reply address being used. However, it should be noted that this is not due to any requirement or limitation of smtp - this is because of addtional requirements imposed by providers, such as google's gmail, which adds additional restrictions that are not standard smtp behavior. Tim