From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Adding advisory notification for non-ELPA package.el downloads Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 08:50:53 +1000 Message-ID: References: <2CCFB38C-4D19-4330-91C4-CF00EEDB58D6@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11454190a62bf90553d62ee2" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1499554296 4113 195.159.176.226 (8 Jul 2017 22:51:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2017 22:51:36 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs-Devel devel To: Jean-Christophe Helary Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 09 00:51:32 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dTyZX-0000nL-Dw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2017 00:51:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34246 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTyZc-0001Bl-RY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 18:51:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45315) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTyZ0-0001BT-9q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 18:50:59 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTyYz-0004jF-5i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 18:50:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qt0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22d]:32855) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTyYy-0004hc-UY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 18:50:57 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qt0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id r30so50297586qtc.0 for ; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 15:50:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UNTvF9MA1MIk2Ncd2G0Z1GLdGgtfQ22pm9IcUe1aek4=; b=Dlea7Begl+KpxXa+eOdLLeQuDQdqrJICh1v0lE/FHq4o8s7ImzL3hzdHb0/NE8NYPA 2YLCIzA8Ist8rNB9ZjE7mr6Wz11V/e+DPUsGI84HF1FhCnXNqpOZwRvSGYY/+PpMF8g/ EIF2x38YgmS0nMvMUOmOFJwgT3iUNzVuJuMvG3YDNUvGtHCevQju533gBKfj8zspavqA nUrE+ydQgKSV/c3ZwzeV82DGu+VBboxPoUw4fzvbhklgHOAOKzSFoWeocVIe1AQSx7LX knJUv4kbQGNj77wRwAdyUVtsGoO8HZf2H8WAy1gaKhufe6yBiiBNODs6liLXtUw9jgUK 3BiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UNTvF9MA1MIk2Ncd2G0Z1GLdGgtfQ22pm9IcUe1aek4=; b=WKxoOIUMwBEhtee4A6ITsulymLYzaCX1Ia0fd4T5NbHuO2ScsM9fwbxSr5O4X2rMaH ltsvbZ6aux4qlIsKdObIoR4wqwet3ReHyzHPIVscLG/eZ87qjtcKv0UgUnOq3RyU/9O9 dvH3NFmbUr7CwNaHoTN3n2z05BiBdrPUSuOr8PYfGjgMIcU9NZ58gb6sE8YUgbdqY0h1 Y9he9LQdrDlTEAShyfL5VFnwk/D2G1g08ASbdL6X82QvdiDzbNiPh3KB3jWws8ldgwIy ij0sHnKSOWOVqG70UwyQ9J5MurV5LZmsGcGHnOZDMFJjYb2N3o5lnljk8mWCMnrXEKww J02Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOwbB/axbxDjLN+PVBYPoF4I6LCOAwqQwfEKjS9qAGELv8ozmIon 6IEiVTmaOEOVUfelA0oAkAyF4S4z0g== X-Received: by 10.237.62.132 with SMTP id n4mr80998646qtf.0.1499554254300; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 15:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.200.38.227 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Jul 2017 15:50:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2CCFB38C-4D19-4330-91C4-CF00EEDB58D6@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22d X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:216346 Archived-At: --001a11454190a62bf90553d62ee2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Totally agree. If we want people to 'do the right thing', we have to make it as easy as possible. If things are as bad as Clement indicates, nagging users will have little impact and what impact it does have will likely be negative. WRT Richard's suggestion about a weekly notice when editing elisp files - not sure if it should be all elisp files or whether it should be restricted to files like *-pkg.el that are part of package.el packages? I do a fair amount of elisp which does not use package.el, so notices about ELPA are just annoying. Maybe we could modify package.el to make it mandatory for packages to include a file/statement which maintainers must include which requires them to acknowledge the benefits of free software and the disadvantages of non-ELPA repositories. Regardless of the approach used, the fundamental requirement will be to remove all unnecessary barriers to using ELPA and maintaining ELPA packages. On 9 July 2017 at 08:12, Jean-Christophe Helary < jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jul 9, 2017, at 2:03, Richard Stallman wrote: > > The goal here is to avoid having packages end up in the situation > Magit is in now. > > > If ELPA inclusion is as cumbersome as Clement describes it, adding elisp > *user* notifications will only upset users and will change little else. > > The first thing to do seems to be seriously refine the technical process > to have packages included in ELPA. Then we can improve the paper signing > system, and then we can embark on a vast campagne to inform MELPA > contributors that they can move to ELPA with little extra overhead. > > If ELPA is concerned with free software, MELPA seems more inclined to > think in terms of "open source software". We can't have people move to free > software if oss proves to be less of a hassle (the minority of people who > can easily be convinced that free software is better are probably already > on ELPA). > > Jean-Christophe > -- regards, Tim -- Tim Cross --001a11454190a62bf90553d62ee2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Totally agree. If we want people to 'do the right thin= g', we have to make it as easy as possible. If things are as bad as Cle= ment indicates, nagging users will have little impact and what impact it do= es have will likely be negative.=C2=A0

WRT Richard's= suggestion about a weekly notice when editing elisp files - not sure if it= should be all elisp files or whether it should be restricted to files like= *-pkg.el that are part of package.el packages? I do a fair amount of elisp= which does not use package.el, so notices about ELPA are just annoying. Ma= ybe we could modify package.el to make it mandatory for packages to include= a file/statement which maintainers must include which requires them to ack= nowledge the benefits of free software and the disadvantages of non-ELPA re= positories.=C2=A0

Regardless of the approach used,= the fundamental requirement will be to remove all unnecessary barriers to = using ELPA and maintaining ELPA packages. =C2=A0

On 9 July 2017 at 08:12, Jean-Ch= ristophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jul 9, = 2017, at 2:03, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

The goal here is to avoid having packages end up in the situationMagit is in now.
=

If ELPA inclusion is as cumbersome as Cl= ement describes it, adding elisp *user* notifications will only upset users= and will change little else.

The first thing to d= o seems to be seriously refine the technical process to have packages inclu= ded in ELPA. Then we can improve the paper signing system, and then we can = embark on a vast campagne to inform MELPA contributors that they can move t= o ELPA with little extra overhead.

If ELPA is conc= erned with free software, MELPA seems more inclined to think in terms of &q= uot;open source software". We can't have people move to free softw= are if oss proves to be less of a hassle (the minority of people who can ea= sily be convinced that free software is better are probably already on ELPA= ).

= Jean-Christophe



--
regards,

Tim

--
Tim Cross

<= /div>
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