From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: smtp crap Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 16:53:28 +1100 Message-ID: References: <8739f4kzp3.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87ipo0p1bc.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <58C87CB9F44943A7BBE78F2D6B62A850@us.oracle.com> <83botsf06d.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1318139635 32487 80.91.229.12 (9 Oct 2011 05:53:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 05:53:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii , cyd@stupidchicken.com, ding@gnus.org, miles@gnu.org To: Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 09 07:53:50 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RCmKb-00066j-OU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2011 07:53:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45604 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RCmKa-0000RX-RD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:53:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39689) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RCmKY-0000RK-8i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:53:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RCmKU-00007i-Jz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:53:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:35374) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RCmKJ-00006h-JX; Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:53:31 -0400 Original-Received: by iaen33 with SMTP id n33so7969464iae.0 for ; Sat, 08 Oct 2011 22:53:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=myq1x/fHmjtmfX6kdMgYzGEdSHfZGi0FWfUpi3Tblww=; b=QMueFMcPBSimNMWXfOS3A4DEceCwjQTCWcBwLnnoaavhN2YZ3VVZav0jXI8kyv1Ev6 slQDxOTPRBQSf5mZg4XF8qxm9iQGfQ+WlUCHTS7L9LHEaXoJrsT6fs2pdyRgmN1nQZML YBAXcFsGBqGh8CAwfOUGj8AwNIHgndBNpvhzo= Original-Received: by 10.231.74.21 with SMTP id s21mr5983007ibj.84.1318139608930; Sat, 08 Oct 2011 22:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.12.67 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Oct 2011 22:53:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:144779 gmane.emacs.gnus.general:80257 Archived-At: Hi Lars, putting aside all the excellent work you have put into updating and improving smtpmail et. al., I think this message possibly sums up the disconnect in opinions on this issue. While you are correct that mailclient is a poorer solution for doing email from within emacs, this overlooks those who in the main don't want to use emacs for mail, but on occasion, for things like emacs bug reports, may need/want to. For this class of user, having to setup emacs mail support is irritating, maybe even annoying. The most likely already have a configured mail client and it is likely the client they are most familiar with. For them, mailclient may be a better solution for those rare occasions they need to initiate an email message from within emacs. For those who really do want to use emacs as their mail client, I tend to agree with Drew in that it is not unreasonable to expect them to put in the effort to set it up. This whole debate has a strong feeling of decisions being made by people based on their own experience/desires and a belief that their position is a majority perspective. This does not at all reflect my own personal experience. While I do use emacs a lot as an email client, most of the people I actually know who also use emacs don't - in fact, they are somewhat amazed I do or that I bother contributing to the maintenance of one of the older emacs MUA packages. Part of the problem here is that we don't really have any idea of what percentage of emacs users fall into what group. The current changes appear to be driven by an underlying assumption that a majority of users also use emacs as their email client. I wonder if it would be worth analyzing mail header of emacs-devel posters for a period to get a breakdown. As this would represent a group of users with a considerable level of investment in emacs, it would probably only give a rough metric, but would at least be something to base decisions on rather than the current guesswork and assumptions. Tim On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen w= rote: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >> Chong and Lars, any objections to changing the default value of >> send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it for MS-Windows only? > > I don't think `mailclient-send-it' is a very satisfactory solution for > sending email. =A0It pops up a different mailer, and the user has to take > actions there, too, to actually send the mail. > > And it doesn't support MIME, so you can't add attachments, and so on. > > mailclient makes Emacs into a second-rate mail client, which seems > unfortunate as a default. > > -- > (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) > =A0bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ > > --=20 Tim Cross Phone: 0428 212 217