From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Rename `eww' to `web' Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 08:50:23 +1000 Message-ID: References: <8738s087wj.fsf@gmail.com> <87bo6mjv4s.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871u7gavwx.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87obaj39sc.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4btxkb7gw7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87k3l72z81.fsf@lifelogs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013c6ab870746e04e0a349bd X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1372891834 4843 80.91.229.3 (3 Jul 2013 22:50:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 22:50:34 +0000 (UTC) To: Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 04 00:50:35 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1UuVsg-0002lU-Mz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 04 Jul 2013 00:50:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56385 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UuVsg-0001yW-BH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 18:50:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40919) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UuVsY-0001yL-Hl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 18:50:28 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UuVsX-0007rO-2G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 18:50:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wg0-x22f.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f]:39710) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UuVsW-0007rC-PH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 18:50:24 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wg0-f47.google.com with SMTP id l18so578734wgh.26 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 15:50:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=SUNQfbVnsW8Sh9nwPY4LGPFuvmgWymuVJI0+tpiTBlo=; b=IAq0wSGvKWhE7j2Yqdlopn3Z1xSpZo7hzenOAil40vwkbpI6CUwf5yq/1Mtn9g7Jrk Sx+NTobMoZWVF66ZADJ/KDpJmZlmTCRGeuPVqmYbt5wGesTaAZDUIXRKLxdxdg3Z02cX 3JGkznXHvCMfLQrQ+FttWL3HH9CLbAWiammS4sNtVh/zdvXqx63OsIzLPeWLy6mmQjnE hzAExJbR7YwguiQNO2FdNZ5sHZYj4wa6Zf8eG0+8zhl+C2SSjG3G+VIzl5quRp4q1WqF CB1iPO2OfGh5gXDvhCm+SXqVefX8x/t7RiNiGh+88FEf3VUhvx/3QHkks/xBypAIHOkc gJAQ== X-Received: by 10.194.158.130 with SMTP id wu2mr1957222wjb.12.1372891823238; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 15:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.194.125.203 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Jul 2013 15:50:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87k3l72z81.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:161492 Archived-At: --089e013c6ab870746e04e0a349bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 This is all fine, but seems to totally miss RMS' point. We can debate default settings, type handlers etc as much as we like, but I think Richard's point was that since we are introducing a new feature, lets make it easier for the user by calling it someting obvious rather than the more cryptic. Using 'eww' may be considered 'cute', but it certainly isn't 'natural'. You will have to put in real memory effort to remember that emacs' in built support for web browsing is 'eww'. Sure, with the great searching mechanisms of emacs, most users will be able to find this procedure fairly easily, but surely it is better if they don't even have to look or use any effort. This is especially relevant for a feature like this which is unlikely to be used by a lot of people every day. Years ago, I had a real problem remembering M-x ielm. Because I only used this command occasionally, I was never able to remember it. Even with apropos et al. it often took longer than necessary to get the right memory jog. Using names which are as 'natural' and reflect purpose as much as possible will help and certainly won't make things worse. Tim On 4 July 2013 05:57, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 12:22:16 -0400 Glenn Morris wrote: > > GM> Ted Zlatanov wrote: > >> in Emacs). Most users just want to enter a URL and browse it. So my > >> main suggestion is to make `C-x C-f' on a URL open a web browser like > >> `eww', or call `browse-url', or do something like that. > > GM> There's url-handler-mode. > > Yes, something like it should be the default, if it can call `eww' when > libxml is available and just get the URL contents otherwise. > > Ted > > > -- Tim Cross --089e013c6ab870746e04e0a349bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is all fine, but seems to totally miss RMS' point= . We can debate default settings, type handlers etc as much as we like, but= I think Richard's point was that since we are introducing a new featur= e, lets make it easier for the user by calling it someting obvious rather t= han the more cryptic. Using 'eww' may be considered 'cute',= but it certainly isn't 'natural'. You will have to put in real= memory effort to remember that emacs' in built support for web browsin= g is 'eww'. Sure, with the great searching mechanisms of emacs, mos= t users will be able to find this procedure fairly easily, but surely it is= better if they don't even have to look or use any effort. This is espe= cially relevant for a feature like this which is unlikely to be used by a l= ot of people every day.=A0

Years ago, I had a real problem remembering M-x ielm. Becaus= e I only used this command occasionally, I was never able to remember it. E= ven with apropos et al. it often took longer than necessary to get the righ= t memory jog. Using names which are as 'natural' and reflect purpos= e as much as possible will help and certainly won't make things worse.= =A0

Tim


On 4 July 2013 05:57, Ted Zlatanov = <tzz@lifelogs.com<= /a>> wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 12:22:16 -0400 Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:

GM> Ted Zlatanov wrote:
>> in Emacs). =A0Most users just want to enter a URL and browse it. = =A0So my
>> main suggestion is to make `C-x C-f' on a URL open a web brows= er like
>> `eww', or call `browse-url', or do something like that.
GM> There's url-handler-mode.

Yes, something like it should be the default, if it can call `eww' when=
libxml is available and just get the URL contents otherwise.

Ted





-- Tim Cross
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