From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mathias Dahl Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Questions about isearch Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 18:52:38 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83lh9lx6oi.fsf@gnu.org> <83a8q1x1cn.fsf@gnu.org> <87h9k74pkw.fsf@gmail.com> <83bnafse4f.fsf@gnu.org> <83r3fwaktc.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11490218d3baee052cd8332e X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1456681986 32379 80.91.229.3 (28 Feb 2016 17:53:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 17:53:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= , Artur Malabarba , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 28 18:53:06 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aa5Wi-00050D-Kc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 18:53:04 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60031 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aa5Wi-0003cR-7Y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 12:53:04 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46945) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aa5Wd-0003Zc-Eg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 12:53:00 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aa5Wc-0001Ho-9g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 12:52:59 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-yw0-x229.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c05::229]:36508) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aa5Wc-0001Hc-3f; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 12:52:58 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-yw0-x229.google.com with SMTP id e63so104877286ywc.3; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 09:52:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zy0Z6RAFy3U5yeY7/+n84E8ARikbv1Mr23NypWh1XHM=; b=cltfFMzIJ3FeYsxCRMTVPWphQJWGR13F0jpFWrPx5CGYp7e9kUKNLey8cA5nrgpj4C hE5LFKvC6xTA3zXGKsV8NWLSyEZ2aFNzzY4SckXBBvjeB2NH20jK9n1YHFROaqXGPGgD KtOn/Ptvxk7l115WU5oVDhFFso+b5TQWurxZkoaQfEBtjUswRP+baHJyNBD4jyppbZHP WVVXrYi/Rrv1XR1d/yV8Ytzh+RFrK3g7x6FS642CzxAD58urB1Ew1xxVFZDZkoQSkzGm TgghFycFNWOhnG1S8Qu9lEh4rlAhYkGig7JSaHNu2L+x9mYfJ1RrN1Us5VuNXr53TpNm /+pg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zy0Z6RAFy3U5yeY7/+n84E8ARikbv1Mr23NypWh1XHM=; b=U/7g4aT1IwdwKdWCt/+vw7BMF3CZrHuQhySEz0pkkO8O2iVh+UMKTUGB4JjrNuYZ/6 vF98ulEM16eIY1Zw9zm9WuIm1HqpJZerAJomJz1D87Wvh/ow+AhD4Xgn+mYraTE6nk4b fqUlVzIRSk1XlAwwpKFgF6Os/7vLxD43IyrenDaDSM0PeO7UcqUyYP03iMF129atcu2R qcP8deVKGZXEoXKUxHge7VrKf+x1kkhpEtvox9No1FIqZOejuo62fPIhb5w9jV0c62Gg X6SB8ozoQFWcNGrKcLyDDiyGG/Fs6E36+2Rehf4xGs5k+1FLltwSZfd9nPabdIwPU7F2 KQuA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLPmzwq/fLW+37Xnt56OP46DUG0kEi6CEkNB0askkinD0ox+SjrwHgAtlETCsjVAB9XIASjL8kqNfCKUg== X-Received: by 10.129.105.3 with SMTP id e3mr6427448ywc.237.1456681977621; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 09:52:57 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.129.34.194 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 09:52:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83r3fwaktc.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4002:c05::229 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:200772 Archived-At: --001a11490218d3baee052cd8332e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > I agree with Per that this new feature is problematic. I have used Emac= s > > for soon 20 years and up until now, if I search for an "a" I find only > > "a". From my view, suddenly finding "=C3=A4" or "=C3=A5" as well would,= in my > > view, be to find "false hits". > > What about finding "a=CC=88" (a 2-character sequence) when looking for "= =C3=A4", or > finding "=C3=A5" (1 character) when looking for "a=CC=8A" (2 characters) = -- would > you consider these false hits as well? > I have not thought about that scenario (in fact, I did not know there was a difference), but since it visually looks the same I would probably be surprised to not find the former when searching using the latter. It is a scenario that I would think is extremely unlikely to happen for "=C3=A4-users" like me thou= gh but I guess that is just anecdotal evidence. > Surely one could argue that case folding has the same problem but I > > think those are less and it has been the default for as long as I > > have used Emacs and I think it is common in most programs to have > > this behavior by default. This new feature however I cannot remember > > seeing anywhere so it cannot be that important to have it turned on > > by default. > > Emacs has many features on by default that are not anywhere else, or > weren't when Emacs introduced them. So I don't think this argument > should guide our decisions. > I don't agree. Just because this is not common in other places does not mean we must use that as the sole argument for such a decision, but I definitely think it can *guide* us, together with other arguments. Much better, of course, would be a poll among users. Since I came late to this discussion I don't know if such a poll was done. I have not heard about the use cases for this change either. In what scenarios is this useful, and does those scenarios happen often enough to motivate such a feature being on by default (and does it outnumber the cases where it causes problems)? I might possibly use this feature myself sometime, but it will not be the normal case. I view this a bit like the difference between a normal, and a regexp isearch, with the difference that I would use this much less often than I use regexp isearch. Or "word isearch", which I never use (possibly because I don't have much need for it). --001a11490218d3baee052cd8332e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> I agree with Per that this= new feature is problematic. I have used Emacs
> for soon 20 years and up until now, if I search for an "a" I= find only
> "a". From my view, suddenly finding "=C3=A4" or &q= uot;=C3=A5" as well would, in my
> view, be to find "false hits".

What about finding "a=CC=88" (a 2-character sequence) when= looking for "=C3=A4", or
finding "=C3=A5" (1 character) when looking for "a=CC=8A&quo= t; (2 characters) -- would
you consider these false hits as well?

= I have not thought about that scenario (in fact, I did not know there was= =C2=A0
a difference), but since it visually looks the same I woul= d probably be surprised=C2=A0
to not find the former when searchi= ng using the latter. It is a scenario that I=C2=A0
would think is= extremely unlikely to happen for "=C3=A4-users" like me though= =C2=A0
but I guess that is just anecdotal evidence.
> Surely one could argue that case folding has the same problem but I > think those are less and it has been the default for as long as I
> have used Emacs and I think it is common in most programs to have
> this behavior by default. This new feature however I cannot remember > seeing anywhere so it cannot be that important to have it turned on > by default.

Emacs has many features on by default that are not anywhere else, or=
weren't when Emacs introduced them.=C2=A0 So I don't think this arg= ument
should guide our decisions.

I don't agree. = Just because this is not common in other places does not mean=C2=A0
we must use that as the sole argument for such a d= ecision, but I definitely=C2=A0
think it ca= n *guide* us, together with other arguments.

Much better, of course, would be a p= oll among users. Since I came late to=C2=A0
this discussion I don't know if such a poll was done. I have not heard= about=C2=A0
the use cases for this change = either. In what scenarios is this useful, and does
those scenarios happen often enough to motivate such a feature bein= g on by
default (and does it outnumber the = cases where it causes problems)? I might=C2=A0
possibly use this feature myself sometime, but it will not be the norma= l case.=C2=A0

I view this a bit like the difference between a normal, and a regex= p isearch, with
the difference that I would= use this much less often than I use regexp isearch. Or
"word isearch", which I never use (possibly because = I don't have much need for
it).


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