* Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el @ 2011-07-05 15:16 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2011-07-05 17:16 ` Eli Zaretskii ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2011-07-05 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Currently, the default envelope from address (aka. SMTP "MAIL FROM") in smtpmail is `user-mail-address'. The user can change this by changing some rather confusing variables called `mail-specify-envelope-from' and `mail-envelope-from'. I wonder whether a more sensible default here would be to use the From: address in the buffer being sent. Some MTAs filter on the MAIL FROM, and only allow access based on a filter, and people adjust their From: headers to reflect that. For instance, when they are at work with their laptops, they use "From: foo@workplace.com", and at home "From: foo@gmail.com". I have no idea whether changing this default will break more stuff than it would help, though. Thoughts? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2011-07-05 15:16 Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2011-07-05 17:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 2011-07-05 19:40 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-07-06 1:30 ` Tim Cross 2012-08-11 1:15 ` Glenn Morris 2 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2011-07-05 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> > Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 17:16:22 +0200 > > Currently, the default envelope from address (aka. SMTP "MAIL FROM") in > smtpmail is `user-mail-address'. The user can change this by changing > some rather confusing variables called `mail-specify-envelope-from' and > `mail-envelope-from'. > > I wonder whether a more sensible default here would be to use the From: > address in the buffer being sent. Some MTAs filter on the MAIL FROM, > and only allow access based on a filter, and people adjust their From: > headers to reflect that. > > For instance, when they are at work with their laptops, they use "From: > foo@workplace.com", and at home "From: foo@gmail.com". > > I have no idea whether changing this default will break more stuff than > it would help, though. Thoughts? I would suggest not to make any new-featurish changes at this point that are not absolutely necessary. We are just a couple of weeks from the pretest -- do we really want to make Emacs as unstable as humanly possible till then? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2011-07-05 17:16 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2011-07-05 19:40 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-07-05 20:33 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-07-05 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen, emacs-devel On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 19:16, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > We are just a couple of weeks from > the pretest -- do we really want to make Emacs as unstable as humanly > possible till then? Yes, of course. As a challenge. Then we can try to beat the 333 days between 21.0.90 and 21.1. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2011-07-05 19:40 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-07-05 20:33 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2011-07-05 20:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: larsi, emacs-devel > From: Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> > Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 21:40:06 +0200 > Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 19:16, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > > We are just a couple of weeks from > > the pretest -- do we really want to make Emacs as unstable as humanly > > possible till then? > > Yes, of course. As a challenge. Then we can try to beat the 333 days > between 21.0.90 and 21.1. We will break it anyway. Wait until I dump all the new bidi stuff on everyone and turn that on by default... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2011-07-05 15:16 Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2011-07-05 17:16 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2011-07-06 1:30 ` Tim Cross 2012-08-11 1:15 ` Glenn Morris 2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Tim Cross @ 2011-07-06 1:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 1:16 AM, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: > Currently, the default envelope from address (aka. SMTP "MAIL FROM") in > smtpmail is `user-mail-address'. The user can change this by changing > some rather confusing variables called `mail-specify-envelope-from' and > `mail-envelope-from'. > > I wonder whether a more sensible default here would be to use the From: > address in the buffer being sent. Some MTAs filter on the MAIL FROM, > and only allow access based on a filter, and people adjust their From: > headers to reflect that. > > For instance, when they are at work with their laptops, they use "From: > foo@workplace.com", and at home "From: foo@gmail.com". > > I have no idea whether changing this default will break more stuff than > it would help, though. Thoughts? > > -- > (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) > bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ > > > Given the short time to pretest, I would wait. I can't remember the full details, but I do distinctly remember running into all sorts of issues with respect to envelope from and mail servers configured to do masquerading and I vaguely remember some issues relating to fetchmail and multi-drop mailboxes etc. I suspect changes in this area may have some unexpected side effects that may take some time to be realised/identified, so you would probably want as long a test period as possible. Tim ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2011-07-05 15:16 Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2011-07-05 17:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 2011-07-06 1:30 ` Tim Cross @ 2012-08-11 1:15 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-11 6:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-11 1:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel; +Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Currently, the default envelope from address (aka. SMTP "MAIL FROM") in > smtpmail is `user-mail-address'. The user can change this by changing > some rather confusing variables called `mail-specify-envelope-from' and > `mail-envelope-from'. > > I wonder whether a more sensible default here would be to use the From: > address in the buffer being sent. Some MTAs filter on the MAIL FROM, > and only allow access based on a filter, and people adjust their From: > headers to reflect that. This was an eminently sensible suggestion from July last year. Please could it be now be implemented. The current default is dumb and can lead to confusing failure modes ("553 From: address not verified"). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-11 1:15 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-11 6:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-08-11 17:52 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-08-11 6:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: larsi, emacs-devel > From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:15:10 -0400 > Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> > > Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > > > Currently, the default envelope from address (aka. SMTP "MAIL FROM") in > > smtpmail is `user-mail-address'. The user can change this by changing > > some rather confusing variables called `mail-specify-envelope-from' and > > `mail-envelope-from'. > > > > I wonder whether a more sensible default here would be to use the From: > > address in the buffer being sent. Some MTAs filter on the MAIL FROM, > > and only allow access based on a filter, and people adjust their From: > > headers to reflect that. > > This was an eminently sensible suggestion from July last year. > Please could it be now be implemented. > > The current default is dumb and can lead to confusing failure modes > ("553 From: address not verified"). Sorry, I cannot figure this out, neither the nature of the problem nor the details of the proposed solution. Can you spell that out? In particular, is the proposal to stop using user-mail-address, or stop using it in smtpmail.el only? If the former, I certainly object, because at least in my setup it is the source of the 'From:' header in the first place. If the proposal is for not using it only in smtpmail.el, then we need to verify that there are no valid use cases without a 'From:' header in the current buffer. Or maybe use 'From:' if it exists and fall back on the existing machinery if not. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-11 6:29 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-08-11 17:52 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-11 18:06 ` Glenn Morris ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-11 17:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Sorry, I cannot figure this out, neither the nature of the problem nor > the details of the proposed solution. Can you spell that out? You are writing an email. The From: header has whatever value it has. Either it came from user-mail-address, or you edited it in the mail composition buffer to say what you wanted it to say. Now you send it. The envelope from address (which is used eg for the MAIL FROM command sent to the stmp server) should default to whatever was in the From: header. At the moment, it effectively defaults to user-mail-address. If this is not the same as From:, you can get confusing failures to send the mail. If From: is the same as user-mail-address,, then the change has no impact on you. > In particular, is the proposal to stop using user-mail-address, or > stop using it in smtpmail.el only? No. > If the proposal is for not using it only in smtpmail.el, then we need > to verify that there are no valid use cases without a 'From:' header > in the current buffer. Or maybe use 'From:' if it exists and fall > back on the existing machinery if not. The proposal is effectively: (setq mail-specify-envelope-from t mail-envelope-from 'header) If you look at the start of smtpmail-send-it, this would do what you suggest. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-11 17:52 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-11 18:06 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-12 0:21 ` Rasmus 2012-08-12 0:19 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2012-09-04 15:49 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-11 18:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel To put it another way: if an email has a From: header, default to using that for the Envelope-From. I think the case of wanting to use something different is much less common, and should be the one that requires Emacs configuration. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-11 18:06 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-12 0:21 ` Rasmus 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Rasmus @ 2012-08-12 0:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes: > To put it another way: if an email has a From: header, default to using > that for the Envelope-From. I think the case of wanting to use something > different is much less common, and should be the one that requires > Emacs configuration. It is perhaps also worth noting that quite a few universities host their mail on outlook.com or on a local outlook server (which I'd guess run an Exchange server underneath). These will /only/ allow you to send mails using the above 'fix'. –Rasmus -- May the Force be with you ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-11 17:52 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-11 18:06 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-12 0:19 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2012-08-12 0:42 ` chad 2012-09-04 15:49 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-08-12 0:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel Glenn Morris writes: > Now you send it. The envelope from address (which is used eg for the > MAIL FROM command sent to the stmp server) should default to whatever > was in the From: header. This is a bad idea. Emacs should set the envelope address only on specific request from the user. Provide an easily customized option, yes. Default, no. The default is to let the MTA figure it out. Users who change the From address had better know what they are doing. > At the moment, it effectively defaults to user-mail-address. Don't you have this backward? The envelope address is set by the MTA, which defaults to using the mailbox of the logged-in user. This corresponds to user-mail-address because user-mail-address defaults to the same value. (I don't know or care what smtpmail.el currently does, but here it is functioning as an MTA.) Note that on some systems unprivileged users using the system MTA may not be able to set the envelope address at all. > > If the proposal is for not using it only in smtpmail.el, then we need > > to verify that there are no valid use cases without a 'From:' header > > in the current buffer. A mail message must have a From field to conform to RFC 5322 (see table on p. 20 of that RFC). Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-12 0:19 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-08-12 0:42 ` chad 2012-08-12 2:08 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: chad @ 2012-08-12 0:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: emacs-devel On 11 Aug 2012, at 17:19, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote: > Glenn Morris writes: > >> Now you send it. The envelope from address (which is used eg for the >> MAIL FROM command sent to the stmp server) should default to whatever >> was in the From: header. > > This is a bad idea. Emacs should set the envelope address only on > specific request from the user. Provide an easily customized option, > yes. Default, no. The default is to let the MTA figure it out. I suspect that Glenn is talking about the case where Emacs is pretending to be an MTA. Then again, I might be wrong. The large number of possible mail configurations for emacs makes these conversations tricky. *Chad ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-12 0:42 ` chad @ 2012-08-12 2:08 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-12 2:15 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-12 3:06 ` chad 0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-12 2:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel chad wrote: > I suspect that Glenn is talking about the case where Emacs is > pretending to be an MTA. Not as far as I know. I'm talking about plain old talking to an SMTP server. smtpmail-via-smtp (abbreviated) does this: (smtpmail-send-command "MAIL FROM:" envelope-from ...) Currently envelope-from defaults to user-mail-address, which may bear no relation to the From: header, which I argue is what the majority will want to use. This is particularly likely to cause problems if you have multiple email accounts, since there is only one value of user-mail-address, which cannot be right for all of them. But I find it hard to think of any case where you want to sent to MAIL FROM != From:. They might exist, but should not be the default. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-12 2:08 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-12 2:15 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-12 3:06 ` chad 1 sibling, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-12 2:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Glenn Morris wrote: > I'm talking about plain old talking to an SMTP server. Maybe I'm only talking about smtpmail.el, I haven't really looked at sendmail.el. The _only_ thing smtpmail.el uses "envelope-from" for is to send the MAIL FROM command to the server. It seems totally obvious to me that the only sane default for this is whatever is in the From: header. (Of course the option to set it to whatever you like should remain.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-12 2:08 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-12 2:15 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-08-12 3:06 ` chad 2012-08-12 15:02 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: chad @ 2012-08-12 3:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel On 11 Aug 2012, at 19:08, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote: >> I suspect that Glenn is talking about the case where Emacs is >> pretending to be an MTA. > > Not as far as I know. I'm talking about plain old talking to an SMTP > server. Probably poor terminology on my part; I learned most of this when MSA and MTA meant basically the same thing (if they were even coined). This is the case that I meant: emacs speaking a network protocol, as opposed to formatting a file and handing it off to a locale program for delivery. In the case Stephen was talking about, local users needed privileges to request an envelope-from (via comand-line switch or From: header) that's not the username. Those systems are still out there, but many people just use network services instead, entirely ignoring the local mail systems. This is basically what emacs does when it talks directly to an SMTP server. I'd be surprised that the current default ever worked, but with all the changes to the SMTP infrastructure in the past several months, it seems likely that everyone who cares fixes it for themselves (I used to do so myself, with some simple wrapper code around the mail sending code). I was hoping to clarify for Stephen that you guys aren't talking about the same cases (at least, it seemed to me that you weren't). I do agree with you about the better default choice, although I also imagine that it's still manually fixed by almost everyone who cares. I hope that helps. Sorry for adding to the noise. *Chad ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-12 3:06 ` chad @ 2012-08-12 15:02 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2012-08-12 17:38 ` chad 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-08-12 15:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: chad; +Cc: emacs-devel chad writes: > I was hoping to clarify for Stephen that you guys aren't talking > about the same cases (at least, it seemed to me that you weren't). That's true. AFAICT I was talking about a superset of the cases that Glenn was, and that's important. My basic point is that there are many different cases, and that Emacs (when acting as an MTA, which is more or less equivalent to speaking SMTP as it does via smtpmail.el) should try to make them all look the same to users. That means that smtpmail.el should *default* to using the logged-in user's mailbox for the envelope sender. It is true that there are fascist MTAs out there that will insist that Sender and envelope sender be consistent (I doubt that From matters if Sender is specified, but not very strongly ... Microsoft's sins in the area of polluting the mail system are varied and often vicious). As long as they accept Sender == envelope sender, that's what I would recommend. Many, perhaps most, users don't know anything about Sender, and maybe Exchange is so broken that the rule is From == envelope sender. So what? As I wrote earlier, if the user is stuck with such a system and chooses to change the From address, he'd better know what he's doing. Among other things, he may be violating the rules of his network by spoofing the envelope sender (eg, last time I checked this was true for mine), or even by spoofing the From address. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-12 15:02 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-08-12 17:38 ` chad 2012-08-13 3:43 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: chad @ 2012-08-12 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org discussions On 12 Aug 2012, at 08:02, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote: > chad writes: >> I was hoping to clarify for Stephen that you guys aren't talking >> about the same cases (at least, it seemed to me that you weren't). > > That's true. AFAICT I was talking about a superset of the cases that > Glenn was, and that's important. It's not a superset in the meaningful case; it's a subset - of the users. > My basic point is that there are many different cases, and that Emacs > (when acting as an MTA, which is more or less equivalent to speaking > SMTP as it does via smtpmail.el) should try to make them all look the > same to users. That means that smtpmail.el should *default* to using > the logged-in user's mailbox for the envelope sender. This is a default that will be wrong the vast majority of the time. It seems silly to choose to default to an assumption that stopped being valid ~15 years ago instead of the value that the user already picked. The cases where a user's login name on an emacs-capable machine is the same as a workable email address are a small minority, even of emacs users, and a fair chunk of those cases *could* use login-name, but don't want to. Work addresses use a company server. School addresses use a university server or service. ISPs, webmail, etc - none of them use the user name. Conversely, user-mail-address has been used for decades, and it already documented to be exactly what we want: Specify your own email address, if Emacs can't figure it out correctly. (setq user-mail-address "cheney@torture.gov") Various Emacs packages, such as Message mode, consult user-mail-address when they need to know your email address. See Mail Headers. If the user hasn't told emacs about an email address, then using the login name is a reasonable choice. If the user *has* told emacs their email address, emacs should use it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-12 17:38 ` chad @ 2012-08-13 3:43 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2012-09-04 13:13 ` Nix 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-08-13 3:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: chad; +Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org discussions chad writes: > It's not a superset in the meaningful case; it's a subset - of the users. Yes, it is, and no, it's not. My mistake was elsewhere. > > That means that smtpmail.el should *default* to using the > > logged-in user's mailbox for the envelope sender. > > This is a default that will be wrong the vast majority of the time. Not at all. `user-mail-address' is an inherited non-default setting in my opinion. My mistake was not explicitly acknowledging that your opinion is different and at least as valid as mine. > The cases where a user's login name on an emacs-capable machine is the > same as a workable email address are a small minority, Probably true. Although I've never bothered on a personal GNU or BSD system, since I've always been behind the relevant firewall where relaying was open (not to mention that, until recently, so were outgoing calls to port 25 :-( ). I suppose a "sufficiently smart" network security committee would prohibit both of those, though. (Do any of those exist? But I digress....) > Conversely, user-mail-address has been used for decades, And is the setting that is currently used by smtpmail.el according to Glenn. But he wants something else! Glenn writes: >> To put it another way: if an email has a From: header, default to >> using that for the Envelope-From. I think the case of wanting to >> use something different is much less common, and should be the one >> that requires Emacs configuration. That's what I was arguing against. So in the end you and I are on the same team, although I was way too fuzzy in my own head about where the default mailbox needs to come from and how Emacs might find out what it is. > If the user hasn't told emacs about an email address, then using the > login name is a reasonable choice. If the user *has* told emacs their > email address, emacs should use it. And if the user decides to mess with From, he's on his own, at least as far as Emacs proper is concerned. No? I suppose it would be possible to enhance user-mail-address to something like user-mail-configurations, which would be a list of lists like (ADDRESS FULLNAME LOGIN AUTHENTICATION EXTRA-HEADERS). Of course Gnus already supports this kind of thing (I forget the Gnus name for the feature, as does VM ("personality crisis"). IIRC, Glenn was specifically referring to Gnus. So if he rephrases slightly to specify that MUA "personality" customizations should offer this option and documentation explaining when it makes sense, I think everybody would be happy. In the long run, it might be nice if Emacs would offer this as part of the compose-mail facility, and MUA packages would call back to themselves (by default) through this facility. Probably not going to happen, though. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-13 3:43 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-09-04 13:13 ` Nix 2012-09-05 1:30 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Nix @ 2012-09-04 13:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: chad, emacs-devel@gnu.org discussions On 13 Aug 2012, Stephen J. Turnbull stated: > I suppose it would be possible to enhance user-mail-address to > something like user-mail-configurations, which would be a list of > lists like (ADDRESS FULLNAME LOGIN AUTHENTICATION EXTRA-HEADERS). Of > course Gnus already supports this kind of thing (I forget the Gnus > name for the feature, as does VM ("personality crisis"). By coincidence I just had to do exactly that: ,---- | (defvar nix-overriding-smtp-servers '(("nick.alcock@oracle.com" "[work.mailserver.host.censored]" 465 ssl)) | "List of SMTP servers to override the default with. | | An alist with each element of the form (EMAIL-ADDRESS SMTP-SERVER SMTP-PORT STREAM-TYPE).") | | (defun nix-get-overriding-smtp-servers () | (save-excursion | (loop with from = (save-restriction | (message-narrow-to-headers) | (message-fetch-field "from")) | for (addr server port stream-type) in nix-overriding-smtp-servers | when (string-match addr from) return (list server port stream-type) | finally return (list smtpmail-smtp-server smtpmail-smtp-service smtpmail-stream-type)))) | | (defadvice smtpmail-via-smtp | (around change-smtp-by-message-from-field (recipient buffer &optional ask) activate) | (with-current-buffer buffer | (progv '(smtpmail-smtp-server smtpmail-smtp-service smtpmail-stream-type) | (nix-get-overriding-smtp-servers) | ad-do-it))) `---- Not killingly difficult, but something it would be nice if we didn't have to do every time. > IIRC, Glenn was specifically referring to Gnus. So if he rephrases > slightly to specify that MUA "personality" customizations should offer > this option and documentation explaining when it makes sense, I think > everybody would be happy. Yes. As seen above, you can do it yourself, but you shouldn't need to, not really: like gnus-posting-styles, this should be something Gnus (or message mode) does for you. -- NULL && (void) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-09-04 13:13 ` Nix @ 2012-09-05 1:30 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2012-09-05 9:14 ` Nix 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-09-05 1:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nix; +Cc: chad, emacs-devel@gnu.org discussions Nix writes: > Yes. As seen above, you can do it yourself, but you shouldn't need to, > not really: like gnus-posting-styles, this should be something Gnus (or > message mode) does for you. That would suck. :-) Seriously, I don't use Gnus, and I don't always use message mode. It's not like this kind of facility is Gnus-specific. Emacs should do it. This is something Python (and I suppose Perl, Ruby, et al) does pretty well. It's one thing that XEmacs was aiming for (and missed badly, in my opinion) in splitting out the packages. I understand why in practice every app has to reinvent these facilities for itself (this kind of refactoring is not amazingly fun work and all the benefit goes to third parties), but it's a shame. Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-09-05 1:30 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-09-05 9:14 ` Nix 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Nix @ 2012-09-05 9:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: chad, emacs-devel@gnu.org discussions On 5 Sep 2012, Stephen J. Turnbull uttered the following: > Nix writes: > > > Yes. As seen above, you can do it yourself, but you shouldn't need to, > > not really: like gnus-posting-styles, this should be something Gnus (or > > message mode) does for you. > > That would suck. :-) Seriously, I don't use Gnus, and I don't always > use message mode. It's not like this kind of facility is Gnus-specific. Well, at least Gnus needs to be able to talk to other modes, and if message mode doesn't do it, who will? Substitute 'Gnus, or message mode, or whatever weird modes exist for people who want to send messages some other way', if you like, but I'm not sure this *can* be hardwired into just smtpmail.el, and if it requires cooperation from other widely-used modes, so be it. > I understand why in practice every app has to reinvent these > facilities for itself (this kind of refactoring is not amazingly fun > work and all the benefit goes to third parties), but it's a shame. What seems to happen is that significant packages (such as Gnus) sprout modes for their own internal use that can then be reused by other people, and are eventually split out of the significant packages into their own thing. This requires a modicum of decent internal interface design, but larsi has always shown himself equal to the task before now. -- NULL && (void) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-08-11 17:52 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-11 18:06 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-12 0:19 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-09-04 15:49 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen 2012-09-04 16:01 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2012-09-04 15:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes: > The proposal is effectively: > > (setq mail-specify-envelope-from t > mail-envelope-from 'header) > > If you look at the start of smtpmail-send-it, this would do what you > suggest. Doesn't it make more sense to just make smtpmail default to using the From header, and then people who don't want that, for some reason or other, can just set `mail-envelope-from' explicitly to whatever they want? Looking at smtpmail.el, I think two `M-t's are all that are needed for that to happen. And a notice in NEWS. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no * Sent from my Emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el 2012-09-04 15:49 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2012-09-04 16:01 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2012-09-04 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Doesn't it make more sense to just make smtpmail default to using the > From header, and then people who don't want that, for some reason or > other, can just set `mail-envelope-from' explicitly to whatever they > want? I've now committed this. If there's unintended consequences here, it should be trivial enough to revert... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no * Sent from my Emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2012-09-05 9:14 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 23+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2011-07-05 15:16 Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2011-07-05 17:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 2011-07-05 19:40 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-07-05 20:33 ` Eli Zaretskii 2011-07-06 1:30 ` Tim Cross 2012-08-11 1:15 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-11 6:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-08-11 17:52 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-11 18:06 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-12 0:21 ` Rasmus 2012-08-12 0:19 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2012-08-12 0:42 ` chad 2012-08-12 2:08 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-12 2:15 ` Glenn Morris 2012-08-12 3:06 ` chad 2012-08-12 15:02 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2012-08-12 17:38 ` chad 2012-08-13 3:43 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2012-09-04 13:13 ` Nix 2012-09-05 1:30 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2012-09-05 9:14 ` Nix 2012-09-04 15:49 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen 2012-09-04 16:01 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
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