A new name for the state of a set of frames?

A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

Bikeshedding season open.

So, I'm extracting the frame handling code from desktop.el and moving
it to a new file, to clean up the interface and facilitate reusing.

I had settled in naming the structure (and thus the file) frame-state
(a state of a set of frames, like frame-configuration is the
configuration of a set of frames), but it has been suggested to me
that it is a really bad name.

What the name will describe (preferably in a short, MS-DOS
short-names-compatible way) is a set of frames and windows that can be
saved & restored, and the data structure used to serialize it. So the
UI aspect of the name is important.

Ideas?

perspective (from Eclipse, apparently)
frame-view
frame-group
view
panorama
landscape
scene
perspective
snapshot

Anything better, please?

   J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Stefan Monnier]

> I had settled in naming the structure (and thus the file) frame-state
> (a state of a set of frames, like frame-configuration is the
> configuration of a set of frames), but it has been suggested to me
> that it is a really bad name.

I must agree that I do not like window-state and frame-state, just like
I don't like window-configuration and frame-configuration:
to my ear, a "window state" or a "window configuration" sounds like
the state/config of a single window, rather than that of all the windows
in a frame.

IOW I'd find "frame-state" to be more fitting for what we now call
window-state/configuration.

Conclusion: these names are confusing.

I'm not sure what would be a good name for those things, but a better
name than what we have would be to simply use the plural form:
windows-state & frames-state.


        Stefan

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Stefan Monnier
<monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> Conclusion: these names are confusing.

Yep.

> but a better
> name than what we have would be to simply use the plural form:
> windows-state & frames-state.

Yes, frames-state will do as a last resort, but I'm hoping someone
will propose a shorter and more euphonic alternative.

   J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Bastien]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> view

FWIW, I like "view".  It is not taken and it matches what it describes
very well (if I understood your proposal correctly.)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[martin rudalics]

 > What the name will describe (preferably in a short, MS-DOS
 > short-names-compatible way) is a set of frames and windows that can be
 > saved & restored, and the data structure used to serialize it.

I'd use "sframes" where "s" would stand for "serializable" or
"serialized".

martin

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

> FWIW, I like "view".

I rather like it, too. I wonder whether it is a bit too generic.

> matches what it describes
> very well (if I understood your proposal correctly.)

A way to save the existing frames, serialize them, and restore them in
the same session or a later one. Like a persistent variant of a
frame-configuration, but with the emphasis in allowing it to be
successfully restored also in non-matching setups (different displays
and monitor sizes, etc.).

   J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:33 AM, martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at> wrote:

> I'd use "sframes" where "s" would stand for "serializable" or
> "serialized".

I think "sframe" does not pass the euphony test, and has the problem
that "sframe" suggests a single frame, and "sframes" is an odd plural
name for a single object. We'd have to go with sframe-list or
sframe-group or sframes-state, and then we're back were we started.

    J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com>
() Wed, 31 Jul 2013 11:44:03 +0200

   [...] and then we're back were we started.

layout
gist
redo
redo-foo, foo ∈ {list, structure, stuff, foo}
essence
snap
snapshot
WISB      (What It Shall Be)
circle
cycle
minima
maxima
constellation
construction
blueprint
sketch
formula
incantation
spell
prayer    (for inevitable Future Emacs Incompatabilities :-D)
note
nit
stash
squash
cool-squash  (flattened and frozen)
platter
plate
plot
splot
splotch
inkling
arrangement
derangement  :-D
drop
drawdown
description  (ugh)
foo-description-{form,...}
flat-form
frozen-flux
fortunate-frills

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen
   GPG key: 4C807502
   (if you're human and you know it)
      read my lisp: (responsep (questions 'technical)
                               (not (via 'mailing-list)))
                     => nil

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Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> wrote:

> layout
[...]
> fortunate-frills

That was... hum... useful, for some values of "useful", I think :-)

Though I quite like layout.

   J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Bastien]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> Though I quite like layout.

+1, that would have been my second proposal if "view" is too generic.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

If nobody objects to layout in the next few hours, I'll go forward with it.

So the file will be lisp/layout.el, and the data structure will be
called "a layout", with operations layout-p, make-layout, copy-layout,
layout-save, layout-restore, etc.
     J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Stefan Monnier]

> If nobody objects to layout in the next few hours, I'll go forward with it.
> So the file will be lisp/layout.el, and the data structure will be
> called "a layout", with operations layout-p, make-layout, copy-layout,
> layout-save, layout-restore, etc.

So a "layout" will be a "frames-state"?  I'm fine with that.
Now, what about a better name for "windows-state"?


        Stefan

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

> So a "layout" will be a "frames-state"?  I'm fine with that.

Yes, "layout" is the kind of object that will encapsulate all the
frames' state, and that has window states as subcomponents (among
other things).

> Now, what about a better name for "windows-state"?

window-state-(get|put) functions exist since 24.1, so changing that
name will cause some confusion, I think. Anyway, that's Martin's
ballpark...

   J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Bastien]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> So a "layout" will be a "frames-state"?  I'm fine with that.
> Now, what about a better name for "windows-state"?

Maybe "view" could be used for the "frames state" and "layout" for the
"windows state"?  "Layout" sounds like it describes something in a 2D
plan (which fits windows states well), with no notion of depth, while
"view" is more 3D-friendly (a bit like "perspective").

-- 
 Bastien

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 4:42 PM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:

> Maybe "view" could be used for the "frames state" and "layout" for the
> "windows state"?  "Layout" sounds like it describes something in a 2D
> plan (which fits windows states well), with no notion of depth, while
> "view" is more 3D-friendly (a bit like "perspective").

I'm OK with that. But someone (<ahem> Stefan <ahem>) please take an
executive decision soon :-)

   J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Stefan Monnier]

> "view" is more 3D-friendly (a bit like "perspective").

But IIUC Eclipse's "perspective"s are "windows-state"s, no?


        Stefan

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> So a "layout" will be a "frames-state"?  I'm fine with that.
>> Now, what about a better name for "windows-state"?
> Maybe "view" could be used for the "frames state" and "layout" for the
> "windows state"?  "Layout" sounds like it describes something in a 2D

I'd rather have a naming where it's blatantly clear which is which,
whereas between "view" and "layout" I couldn't tell you offhand which
sounds more like what.
And "view" means too many other things for me (model/view/controller,
view patterns, view-mode, ...).


        Stefan

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Maybe "view" could be used for the "frames state" and "layout" for the
>> "windows state"?  "Layout" sounds like it describes something in a 2D
>> plan (which fits windows states well), with no notion of depth, while
>> "view" is more 3D-friendly (a bit like "perspective").
> I'm OK with that. But someone (<ahem> Stefan <ahem>) please take an
> executive decision soon :-)

Layout sounds good for frames-state.


        Stefan

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Bastien]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> "view" is more 3D-friendly (a bit like "perspective").
>
> But IIUC Eclipse's "perspective"s are "windows-state"s, no?

Yes.

  Each Workbench window contains one or more perspectives.
  Perspectives contain views and editors and control what appears in
  certain menus and tool bars.  More than one Workbench window can
  exist on the desktop at any given time.

That's from:
http://help.eclipse.org/juno/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.eclipse.platform.doc.user%2Fconcepts%2Fconcepts-4.htm

Also see:
http://www.eclipse.org/articles/using-perspectives/PerspectiveArticle.html

(I just searched the web, I never used Eclipse.)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Bastien]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> Layout sounds good for frames-state.

Yep.  And I also agree "view" is ambiguous.

What about "panel" for windows-state?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[chad]

Is a single-word name really valuable? How about frame-layout and window-layout?

~Chad

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:37 PM, chad <yandros@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is a single-word name really valuable? How about frame-layout and window-layout?

I wouldn't mind, but then again, "frame-layout" seems the layout of a
single frame; same for window-layout. We're back to frame-state,
window-state.

   J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Jan Djärv]

Hi. 

1 aug 2013 kl. 19:31 skrev Bastien <bzg@gnu.org>:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> 
>>> "view" is more 3D-friendly (a bit like "perspective").
>> 
>> But IIUC Eclipse's "perspective"s are "windows-state"s, no?
> 
> Yes.
> 
>  Each Workbench window contains one or more perspectives.
>  Perspectives contain views and editors and control what appears in
>  certain menus and tool bars.  More than one Workbench window can
>  exist on the desktop at any given time.
> 

To be clear:
Workbench window corresponds to Emacs frame. 
Eclipse view corresponds to Emacs window (sort of).

> That's from:
> http://help.eclipse.org/juno/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.eclipse.platform.doc.user%2Fconcepts%2Fconcepts-4.htm
> 
> Also see:
> http://www.eclipse.org/articles/using-perspectives/PerspectiveArticle.html
> 
> (I just searched the web, I never used Eclipse.)

I have and do, with Emacs key bindings of course :-)

    Jan D.

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Layout sounds good for frames-state.
> Yep.  And I also agree "view" is ambiguous.
> What about "panel" for windows-state?

Hmm... I see where you're coming from, but I don't like it very much
(outside of its use in the context of GUIs, the word "panel" doesn't
seem to evoke anything close to a windows-state for me).

There's worse and I could live with it, but I'm not sold on the idea.


        Stefan

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Is a single-word name really valuable? How about frame-layout and
>> window-layout?
> I wouldn't mind, but then again, "frame-layout" seems the layout of a
> single frame; same for window-layout. We're back to frame-state,
> window-state.

Then how 'bout frames-layout and windows-layout?


        Stefan

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juri Linkov]

>> Is a single-word name really valuable? How about
>> frame-layout and window-layout?
>
> I wouldn't mind, but then again, "frame-layout" seems the layout of a
> single frame; same for window-layout. We're back to frame-state,
> window-state.

But the current "frame-configuration" doesn't mean the layout of
a single frame.  IIUC, "frame" here is an adjective.  The same is
for "window-configuration".  Then "frame-layout" and "window-layout"
would be fine too.  Actually you can see this terminology already in
(info "(gnus) Window Layout") and ecb-layout-defs.el
(that also allow percentage for window/frame sizes that
would be useful when restoring in non-matching setups
with different monitor sizes.)

OTOH, I missed what is wrong with the existing names
"frame-configuration" and "window-configuration"?
Do we need a new terminology because "window-configuration"
has too wide scope, so a new term like "layout"
would be more specific about positioning windows/frames?
I mean does the following describes the state of affairs:
window-configuration = window-layout + non-layout parameters

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Alp Aker]

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> Now, what about a better name for "windows-state"?

"Tiling"?

It connotes two things that are true of arrangements of windows (on a
frame) but not of arrangements of frames:  elements of a tiling can't
overlap and they fit together without gaps.

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Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> Is a single-word name really valuable? How about
>>> frame-layout and window-layout?
>> I wouldn't mind, but then again, "frame-layout" seems the layout of a
>> single frame; same for window-layout. We're back to frame-state,
>> window-state.
> But the current "frame-configuration" doesn't mean the layout of
> a single frame.

Indeed, but as mentioned earlier in this thread, I find these names
confusing, since the natural meaning of frame-configuration, to me, is
"the configuration of a frame", i.e. what we currently call
a window-configuration or window-state.

> IIUC, "frame" here is an adjective.

I know Emacs terminology is sometimes a bit interesting, but...
"frame" be used as an adjective, really?

I'm pretty sure we can do better.


        Stefan

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> wrote:

> But the current "frame-configuration" doesn't mean the layout of
> a single frame. IIUC, "frame" here is an adjective.

That was my argument when I chose frame-state, but it was shoot down,
and for good reasons.

> OTOH, I missed what is wrong with the existing names
> "frame-configuration" and "window-configuration"?

There's nothing wrong, it's just that a frame-configuration and a
frames-layout (?) are not the same thing. They cannot be used
interchangeably.

    J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juri Linkov]

> I'm pretty sure we can do better.

Then maybe take terminology from HTML?  In HTML, a frameset is
a group of named frames.  The attributes "rows" and "cols" on
<frameset> define the dimensions of frames, specified in either pixels
or percentages.  <frame> defines a single frame within the frameset.

Relevant links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_%28World_Wide_Web%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element#Frames
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28HTML%29#Frame_elements

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juri Linkov]

>> I'm pretty sure we can do better.
>
> Then maybe take terminology from HTML?  In HTML, a frameset is
> a group of named frames.  The attributes "rows" and "cols" on
> <frameset> define the dimensions of frames, specified in either pixels
> or percentages.  <frame> defines a single frame within the frameset.

I forgot that this was already discussed at
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-05/msg00458.html

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> wrote:

> I forgot that this was already discussed at
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-05/msg00458.html

Still, it's the name I like best until now.  "Saving a frameset" has a
nice ring to it.

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Stefan Monnier]

> Still, it's the name I like best until now.  "Saving a frameset" has a
> nice ring to it.

frameset/windowset sounds OK.  It has the downside of insisting on the
"set of frames", disregarding the fact that it doesn't actually contain
frames whereas it does contain frame descriptions.
E.g. contrast with the `fileset's we have elsewhere.


        Stefan

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

> frameset/windowset sounds OK.

OK, I'll go forward with frameset and will put my index fingers into
my ears and sing loudly to fend off any other suggestions until this
is finally committed.

> It has the downside of insisting on the
> "set of frames", disregarding the fact that it doesn't actually contain
> frames whereas it does contain frame descriptions.

...and windowsets.

All in all, I think a frameset does contain frames all right, it's
just that they're feeling a bit disembodied.

> E.g. contrast with the `fileset's we have elsewhere.

I wouldn't say that a fileset "contains" files.

    J

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Xue Fuqiao]

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 1:22 AM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> I'd rather have a naming where it's blatantly clear which is which,
> whereas between "view" and "layout" I couldn't tell you offhand which
> sounds more like what.
> And "view" means too many other things for me (model/view/controller,
> view patterns, view-mode, ...).

A great +1.  There are too many obscure (IMO) terms in Emacs, and I
really don't want to see another one.

-- 
Best regards, Xue Fuqiao.
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

Re: A new name for the state of a set of frames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> frameset/windowset sounds OK.

Committed.

Still needs:
 - lots of testing, mostly on non-Windows systems.
 - a good look at frameset.el, with an eye in making the API as
general as possible
 - code to restore the selected frame
 - support for a few more predicates when restoring (to select reused
frames, etc.)
 - adding frameset-to-register and support for jump-to-register ?
 - documentation