From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Dov Grobgeld Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs as browser (was Re: Concurrency, again) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 10:31:48 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87wq97i78i.fsf@earlgrey.lan> <83twckekqq.fsf@gnu.org> <83mvi9a3mh.fsf@gnu.org> <20161012165911.58437154@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <20161012173314.799d1dc5@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <8360owaj2s.fsf@gnu.org> <20161013092701.77461800@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <20161017105345.2f255760@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <83y41nx8l6.fsf@gnu.org> <20161017123459.5ded9408@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <87vawosoul.fsf@elephly.net> <20161019090741.46ea2704@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <20161019163806.7c77f100@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <83twc7tqxr.fsf@gnu.org> <20161020111527.26bf4ab9@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <83h987t4c0.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fc3d609928a053f5b09fe X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1477035184 30703 195.159.176.226 (21 Oct 2016 07:33:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 07:33:04 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, jwiegley@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rekado@elephly.net, Stefan Monnier , "Perry E. Metzger" To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 21 09:32:59 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bxUJf-0004cf-OT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2016 09:32:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59284 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bxUJi-0007vf-0w for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2016 03:32:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49763) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bxUJ8-0007vZ-2P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2016 03:32:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bxUJ6-0003ju-QK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2016 03:32:02 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf0-x22e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e]:36168) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bxUJ1-0003Vx-O4; Fri, 21 Oct 2016 03:31:56 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id b75so128783581lfg.3; Fri, 21 Oct 2016 00:31:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tvst1531jd8hzpfapTLyLDeRBESR5pGDPxvNf0IAAgc=; b=ljJcw+/rus5IAiLH/gnVxUclpPwiQs4xRnbMe15FdqaOArOsOII19+N9MX6z4I+wLu szWUIrfrQlDKWSRn5ah7I2vDkyTrgiHB1SdlwMZMMBEQe3u2w8IJoByis1oKMqTLbMDr Ifp/JjlSEqGq7W/U1PUp+xIqxRJCgUT4aQehQbR1h5t42gXOUVjldx8CYC645AyWXGof UNRTTUR88sOg4tXeyr8oK5A6OpNnGqzNfcOrzsIeRQ0eW9/sdDZD5ZscgpZsOX+pFZgg T88nxJYU2WPz976p/O3d30D7u9uD+ZkYsV16gTvwmD4NxF5H9mIlu5wPOAy8AJ2Y1xkn XgZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tvst1531jd8hzpfapTLyLDeRBESR5pGDPxvNf0IAAgc=; b=GRiFdu+2FhrKJYMucr9QaOKbwPBAAnAzwe9D5SJ71uwIeW3KV4kkd8IxhKm2y3aQIU /DJhufoWVbOy06pHEuSzZjqQsAKvlgzJdihd700e3KcS1411uwpkxrkKKqmrZfaduL62 zbc6FFzpHKnfjmObBEOMPmM70B8IGp/FWE8TP2IxMxXlRVnuCI5AQJ8KV5aHaxHskRCT aBkFrq7ze+W1oS+Xf9w9mz9KmdEHSlm/ZDVd8ZbviiIKla3MwHjUmQSP3Z/lmAG8Bxx+ EdD0NkI9LjT3UwP7CwDqO/g6OJsIv3vgDlts7WyK/gtyZ9RWxzrdFw8TlTih61qlR5DE 34/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AA6/9RmcIVrONDHZh+zYPIVw9dEVhJBB4fxV36BbprDMk5QQFNmnzW77DXV0qN7FksqDTd1i6tLA6oDYerhafA== X-Received: by 10.25.15.169 with SMTP id 41mr3641575lfp.19.1477035109747; Fri, 21 Oct 2016 00:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.25.99.14 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Oct 2016 00:31:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83h987t4c0.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:208571 Archived-At: --001a113fc3d609928a053f5b09fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 For whatever it is worth, I checked out the branch origin/old-branches/cairo compiled it and it seemed to work just fine under Fedora 24. I couldn't reproduce either of the bugs #20997 nor #23925. In any case these two bugs both discuss refresh issues, which is outside of the scope of cairo which is a rendering engine. My feeling is that the only issue in the bug tracker that you may need an "cairo expert" for, is the memory leak in #22961. The rest of the bugs are more related to exposure triggered redraws and interaction with the window manager. These are certainly related to the cairo branch, but have nothing to do with cairo per se. Regards, Dov On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 11:15:27 -0400 > > From: "Perry E. Metzger" > > Cc: rekado@elephly.net, jwiegley@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, > > rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca > > > > (There are four front ends now, right? MS Windows, X, NextStep and > > tty, yes?) > > Yes. Although the TTY back-end has some quirks in the MS-Windows > build, because termcap/terminfo is not supported by the Windows > console (or wasn't until Windows 10.1). > > > Is there any documentation about the internal interfaces between the > > terminal layer and the back end? > > Look at 'struct redisplay_interface' (for X it gets populated around > line 12470 of xterm.c) and at hooks in 'struct terminal' (populated > for X in x_create_terminal). TTYs don't have 'struct > redisplay_interface' (for historical reasons), but instead call the > corresponding functions directly. > > > I doubt I'm skilled enough in something like Wayland to do this work > > but I'd like to get a bit of a sense of how awful the work is. > > Thanks for trying. > > > And what *did* happen to the Cairo stuff? > > I has bugs that we cannot fix because no one knowns enough about Cairo > drawing. The person who wrote the code left the Emacs development > short time after merging the code. > > > Cairo would make Wayland easy if I recall correctly. > > That was the idea behind introducing it. > > > > IMO, working on that is much more important for the future of Emacs > > > than any other improvements, including, but not limited to, the > > > "future of Emacs Lisp" discussions, the "feature/integrated-elpa" > > > discussions, etc. Developing Emacs without first-class experts on X > > > on board makes no sense to me. > > > > Perhaps no first class experts in the area are aware that Emacs needs > > the help? > > Perhaps. > > --001a113fc3d609928a053f5b09fe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For whatever it is worth, I checked out the branch orig= in/old-branches/cairo compiled it and it seemed to work just fine under Fed= ora 24. I couldn't reproduce either of the bugs #20997 nor #23925.
=
In any case these two bugs both discuss refresh issues, which = is outside of the scope of cairo which is a rendering engine.

My feeling is that the only issue in the bug tracker that you may need= an "cairo expert" for, is the memory leak in #22961. The rest of= the bugs are more related to exposure triggered redraws and interaction wi= th the window manager. These are certainly related to the cairo branch, but= have nothing to do with cairo per se.

Regards,
Dov


On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org= > wrote:
> Date: Thu, 20= Oct 2016 11:15:27 -0400
> From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
> Cc: rekado@elephly.net, jwiegley@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org,
>=C2=A0 rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca
>
> (There are four front ends now, right? MS Windows, X, NextStep and
> tty, yes?)

Yes.=C2=A0 Although the TTY back-end has some quirks in the MS-Windo= ws
build, because termcap/terminfo is not supported by the Windows
console (or wasn't until Windows 10.1).

> Is there any documentation about the internal interfaces between the > terminal layer and the back end?

Look at 'struct redisplay_interface' (for X it gets populate= d around
line 12470 of xterm.c) and at hooks in 'struct terminal' (populated=
for X in x_create_terminal).=C2=A0 TTYs don't have 'struct
redisplay_interface' (for historical reasons), but instead call the
corresponding functions directly.

> I doubt I'm skilled enough in something like Wayland to do this wo= rk
> but I'd like to get a bit of a sense of how awful the work is.

Thanks for trying.

> And what *did* happen to the Cairo stuff?

I has bugs that we cannot fix because no one knowns enough about Cai= ro
drawing.=C2=A0 The person who wrote the code left the Emacs development
short time after merging the code.

> Cairo would make Wayland easy if I recall correctly.

That was the idea behind introducing it.

> > IMO, working on that is much more important for the future of Ema= cs
> > than any other improvements, including, but not limited to, the > > "future of Emacs Lisp" discussions, the "feature/i= ntegrated-elpa"
> > discussions, etc.=C2=A0 Developing Emacs without first-class expe= rts on X
> > on board makes no sense to me.
>
> Perhaps no first class experts in the area are aware that Emacs needs<= br> > the help?

Perhaps.


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