From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Yuan Fu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:52:26 -0400 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <83zhb6grtq.fsf@gnu.org> <83ftcwgb07.fsf@gnu.org> <291bb5b2-92d5-85f1-57d8-895eed14ffc2@yandex.ru> <837dy7fyeg.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EF34F7B4-559B-4CA6-9F25-F794676926F1" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="105572"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Dmitry Gutov , =?utf-8?Q?S=C3=A9bastien_Gendre?= , EMACS development team To: chad Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 23 00:53:42 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jROFS-000RLR-B9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:53:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59136 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jROFR-0005rG-Ci for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:53:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58704) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jROEX-0005QX-0Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:52:45 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jROEW-0002Lv-8S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:52:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qv1-xf29.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::f29]:36859) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jROEI-0008Tw-JF; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:52:30 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qv1-xf29.google.com with SMTP id w18so1893216qvs.3; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:52:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=h79QwSSZhPIH3U2TxBEhefKqtvyBnMDpC8CNPos6pfc=; b=kddVZDPE+CdquMD5vR7R7CS6kUAXnZwcLSBW6VPzr8kPX+eRWcIQYFOmcvQI4bQySr oTx40gX7G46En7ARSKwjJ8fURm2zX8KnGfEEE+1jfATBsCjJzZuakuNI90eSA3heKy5/ O5e8qJB6yAeMKmX+59TG0dDvJ+mbmeIH5t0uAneTAO3VzpvlZ71knE3x7f78pqiB2I4N 13BYuTvIn5reASBPwJ5QCwSrXA+yWycAD8KJxF3Ow9iUHZ/yCaGnvi/5lS/VMdS9cpc8 wyhD9Bu1b7ohpe1h7iZSnFiaT50/iMpS10FYldlkLvaWXKoLDDq/C//l4i4KE6STlqtu 7EsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=h79QwSSZhPIH3U2TxBEhefKqtvyBnMDpC8CNPos6pfc=; b=mpGdbDqI9CjDVcx0AdMdG9MD32s72DXZG/FJGenqztXS33zQ6vjkLLq3o4IlP9hLPk 9lxgUtq0PEgriODUwHXl5Gojy0Z8vPq21nc0vSNbEmL3DR/kjPoh2Engk7NCOgnOrY+x JoxX3NWR2N7A3Gp+uzlNuUxv/pGbThK84qeiPKGAatHGXFzTBCaUTu7xe7tdttfgCQMA 1ZTLT7Mq/lYfG0zx3J1DLhbnPYkR+vJ0zy6SSclS/oULnMQ0pPSpP+CVOeWRyLH1WjuA WD31Kb81eOYl6L4Y4mqYE2qaUEY9I/cFiSPTiWj1gKIsWX1oi8M3jGDlydnpwP6P0tLs YpBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZzt1FIzkxj+yj6XeAmJWmwUKL/kU/IU0uRPwtVXwo1KUE5IIlO qjfNcTEIZkVXyjawxFxa3zI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIwp9LYDy0ICnrclipOzWTlt0y1zUb4eqrOswG9x8WU+G887HYqpIlcWfkP9GZQ9VAQ9CO2ig== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:9baa:: with SMTP id o42mr1429788qve.124.1587595949220; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.5] (c-174-60-229-153.hsd1.pa.comcast.net. [174.60.229.153]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p202sm395307qke.120.2020.04.22.15.52.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:52:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::f29; envelope-from=casouri@gmail.com; helo=mail-qv1-xf29.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f29 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247554 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_EF34F7B4-559B-4CA6-9F25-F794676926F1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 22, 2020, at 1:46 PM, chad wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 6:27 AM Eli Zaretskii > wrote: > > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > From: Dmitry Gutov > > > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 04:35:48 +0300 > >=20 > > > Does this mean users who download this "shiny Emacs" will be = unable to > > > upgrade to a newer version? > >=20 > > The pre-configuration could contain just one line: > >=20 > > (require 'shiny-settings) > >=20 > > where shiny-settings.el is distributed with Emacs and is updated=20 > > together with new releases. >=20 > So we expect users not to customize their Emacs, as long as they use > the "shiny Emacs"? What are the chances of that to work? >=20 > Spacemacs, Doom, and Prelude (to name just three of the more popular = options) all make this work out-of-tree, so it certainly seems possible. = =46rom my reading, the first two (at least) are strongly expected to be = customized after installation, and to have those customizations survive = updates of the "kit". >=20 > Spacemacs in particular adds a "layer" concept to emacs customization = so that bundles of related options/code/packages/config can be turned on = or off as a group. Details can be found at: = https://www.spacemacs.org/doc/LAYERS.html = . I would personally hope = that we could streamline this process, which seems pretty bulky from the = outside. Maybe inviting the Spacemacs people to share their experience = that led to creating their layers system would be helpful to us both. (I = would have CC'd them onthis message, but their team seems to be heavily = based around github (pull requests, gitter sharing, etc.), so it's not = obvious to me whom to contact. I can look into finding a contact if = people think it's worthwhile. >=20 > ~Chad >=20 I=E2=80=99ve used Spacemacs for quite a while back in 2017 when I just = started using Emacs. It=E2=80=99s more of a gigantic community-driven = config than an out-of-box for-dummy kit. What I envisioned is more like = what VSCode does: automatically installing appropriate packages and = downloading and setting up external programs. I would use it if there is = such feature - many of my configs are just (use-package package) with = some code adding hooks and auto-mode-alist. Some ideas:=20 1. Is it ok to include MELPA (opt-in) as one of the mirrors? Say a = newbie type M-x auto-package-mode, and boom, all the auto installing = package features are on, and MELPA is added to package-archives.=20 2. Could Emacs downloads some external programs (like LSP servers) for = users? I would definitely let Emacs do the dirty work if it works = reliably. But maybe there are security/maintenance concerns. 3. It would be cool if Customize can customize mode hooks and = auto-mode-alist and other usual stuff. Yuan --Apple-Mail=_EF34F7B4-559B-4CA6-9F25-F794676926F1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Apr 22, 2020, at 1:46 PM, chad <yandros@gmail.com> = wrote:

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 = at 6:27 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 04:35:48 +0300
>
> > Does this mean users who download this "shiny Emacs" will be = unable to
> > upgrade to a newer version?
>
> The pre-configuration could contain just one line:
>
>    (require 'shiny-settings)
>
> where shiny-settings.el is distributed with Emacs and is updated =
> together with new releases.

So we expect users not to customize their Emacs, as long as they use
the "shiny Emacs"?  What are the chances of that to work?

Spacemacs, Doom, and Prelude (to name just three of the more = popular options) all make this work out-of-tree, so it certainly seems = possible. =46rom my reading, the first two (at least) are strongly = expected to be customized after installation, and to have those = customizations survive updates of the "kit".

Spacemacs in particular adds a "layer" = concept to emacs customization so that bundles of related = options/code/packages/config can be turned on or off as a group.  = Details can be found at: https://www.spacemacs.org/doc/LAYERS.html. I would = personally hope that we could streamline this process, which seems = pretty bulky from the outside. Maybe inviting the Spacemacs people to = share their experience that led to creating their layers system would be = helpful to us both. (I would have CC'd them onthis message, but their = team seems to be heavily based around github (pull requests, gitter = sharing, etc.), so it's not obvious to me whom to contact. I can look = into finding a contact if people think it's worthwhile.

~Chad


I=E2=80=99ve = used Spacemacs for quite a while back in 2017 when I just started using = Emacs. It=E2=80=99s more of a gigantic community-driven config than an = out-of-box for-dummy kit. What I envisioned is more like what VSCode = does: automatically installing appropriate packages and downloading and = setting up external programs. I would use it if there is such feature - = many of my configs are just (use-package package) with some code adding = hooks and auto-mode-alist.

Some ideas: 
1. Is it ok to include = MELPA (opt-in) as one of the mirrors? Say a newbie type M-x = auto-package-mode, and boom, all the auto installing package features = are on, and MELPA is added to package-archives. 
2. Could Emacs downloads some external programs (like LSP = servers) for users? I would definitely let Emacs do the dirty work if it = works reliably. But maybe there are security/maintenance = concerns.
3. It would be cool if Customize can = customize mode hooks and auto-mode-alist and other usual = stuff.

Yuan


= --Apple-Mail=_EF34F7B4-559B-4CA6-9F25-F794676926F1--