From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs for new users Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:35:05 -0800 Message-ID: References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@mail.gmail.com> <485b0c380911230905t6513e718w1dd804e18003228@mail.gmail.com> <6E092AF13796494BADEBCE2C5C0361CE@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1259091832 23222 80.91.229.12 (24 Nov 2009 19:43:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:43:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: per@starback.se, rms@gnu.org, 'Stephen Eilert' , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Lennart Borgman'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 24 20:43:44 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1ND1Ic-00042i-I4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:43:43 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48387 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ND1Ic-0005ft-3N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:43:42 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1ND1BR-0007oF-3a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:36:17 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1ND1BM-0007kn-AT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:36:16 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=49051 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ND1BM-0007kj-5S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:36:12 -0500 Original-Received: from rcsinet11.oracle.com ([148.87.113.123]:64371 helo=rgminet11.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1ND1BJ-00073b-8d; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:36:09 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rgminet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id nAOJa5pN008734 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:36:06 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id nAOJMkqe011537; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:37:56 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt004.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 579578531259091303; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:35:03 -0800 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.185.59) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:35:02 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcptNE2IzMIrB7DcRkqldjDXM98+HgAB68iQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4B0C35A0.0151:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:117702 Archived-At: > >> > I do not want to see minibuffer inputting become something > >> > strictly modal that locks you into some restricted dialog. > >> > Users should be able to go anywhere and > >> > do pretty much anything while the minibuffer is active. > >> > >> I said for new users. > > > > I do not want to see the minibuffer becoming like that for > > new users either. > > Maybe they would want it though. Maybe. (How do they know what they want or need wrt _learning Emacs_?) But is that what we want for them? Who is in a better position to design Emacs to help new users, new users themselves or people familiar with Emacs (and with new-user reports)? Someone with no experience of Emacs might have certain expectations and a certain idea of text editing. But those expectations and that idea do not necessarily correspond to what Emacs is or to how best to use Emacs. Being a newbie is not _only_ about carrying the baggage of your previous experience. It is also about learning something new. Often it is about (sometimes even _mainly_ about) shedding preconceptions and changing one's mental model. Sure, we need to be aware of baggage newbies might be carrying, but they are for the most part ignorant of the new things that they will be learning. It is up to us to design Emacs not only to welcome them but to help them learn about this new world. > So I set enable-recursive-minibuffer, press M-x, switch to a new > frame, press M-x ... Your question (or comment?) is what, exactly?