From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:14:44 -0800 Message-ID: References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <87ppbqb6s1.fsf@gnu.org> <87h9x2f9me.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87a92uf8ik.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8761dif6ib.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87k31xkue1.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87mw6tj8gp.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1418505316 13932 80.91.229.3 (13 Dec 2014 21:15:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 21:15:16 +0000 (UTC) To: Richard Stallman , emacs Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 13 22:15:09 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xzu1s-0001Cu-UD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 22:15:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34304 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xzu1s-0007Ae-0W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 16:15:08 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46584) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xzu1j-00078q-Dj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 16:15:04 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xzu1d-0006pK-TJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 16:14:59 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x235.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::235]:60732) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xzu1X-0006aa-QF; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 16:14:47 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id kq14so9212952pab.26 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:14:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Lg6yBXIrHU19DUKx7eVThhuorAOcFVq62K4tA9RL6H8=; b=b5BRo9fRHXu9Z6ouGGHun5O+NK+T3aWJraKSkHeUoDls4VHh/ka7Tr4LYS3zbJZQlf 9xSSeIZGbB+IZRilMiZ5SgUOlk3R1HcWywxN9huc3WZvrrNVNYdhtFZKzHa+0OLR+Mc8 4k73rrdc4UTdlE7vjFL49jjykx1rDO30j0RxRyxMN54xZhoViGvucfy1yObkdAr/sKzk 1td//juIvfJ2pqhwPiAbl/Q3g/A2j6wfJ1WVuGqeuWGdveQyof6rS5ppwKLwSUVnJeqm bq/xNMaMuuYB1sjhbU5H23fSYYPwJ9gFmNq2L2UO9tBVC9vhh5cVvUzIYg7jAt/M/xL5 1Z8A== X-Received: by 10.70.37.104 with SMTP id x8mr37292073pdj.119.1418505286620; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:14:46 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [10.0.1.6] (75-165-96-95.tukw.qwest.net. [75.165.96.95]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id pg9sm4987875pdb.71.2014.12.13.13.14.45 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:14:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::235 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180038 Archived-At: > On 12 Dec 2014, at 17:47, Richard Stallman wrote: > >> http://www.w3.org/Talks/Tools/Slidy2/#%281%29 > >> This implements next and previous buttons like info. > > Do you have to click on the buttons to use them? If so, that is not as > convenient as the Info reader, with its n and p commands. No, the mouse is not required in any way. The package is designed to work like presentation programs, rather than info, so its key-bindings are different, but theyre no less functional. The second page of that presentation includes this text: * Advance to next slide with mouse click, space bar or swipe left * Move forward/backward between slides with Cursor Left, Cursor Right, Pg Up and Pg Dn keys, or swipe left or right * Home key for first slide, End key for last slide * The "C" key for an automatically generated table of contents, or click on "contents" on the toolbar or swipe up or down * Function F11 to go full screen and back * The "F" key toggles the display of the footer * The "A" key toggles display of current vs all slides * Switching off JavaScript reveals all slides > I don't think any general web browser could give the convenience of > Info. The Info-style n and p commands (and others) don't belong in a > general web browser. Web browsers *that can run javascript* are far more capable (in terms of available functionality) than info browsers other than emacs, and have been for a while now. By way of example, someone recently posted a link to a page that runs a PC emulator and boots a unix kernel, using only the web browser's functionality. Making a general web browser of the sort that is considered baseline functionality these days do everything that the info browser needs to do is not at all hard from a technical standpoint; the harder part is getting the information that the program needs in a way that is convenient (particularly in time and mental effort) the documentation-writers want is a harder concern. This sort of functionality uses client-side javascript, which is something of a concern. That's a separate problem worth addressing, but seems likely to be a distraction from the current topic. If client-side javascript is a deal-breaker for this topic, I suggest that you just declare it so and move on. I hope that helps, ~Chad