From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Jan D." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changing the no-toolkit scrollbar thumb color. (minor issue) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 09:23:00 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <20031005002529.GC23295@fencepost> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1065338877 27836 80.91.224.253 (5 Oct 2003 07:27:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 07:27:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: bob@rattlesnake.com, teirllm@dms.auburn.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 05 09:27:54 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A63J4-0002Zi-00 for ; Sun, 05 Oct 2003 09:27:54 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A63J4-0001C9-00 for ; Sun, 05 Oct 2003 09:27:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1A63G1-0007Z6-Px for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Sun, 05 Oct 2003 03:24:45 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1A63Fw-0007Vf-LD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Oct 2003 03:24:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1A63FL-00079p-Nb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Oct 2003 03:24:34 -0400 Original-Received: from [193.201.16.94] (helo=stubby.bodenonline.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1A63Eq-0006pW-1d; Sun, 05 Oct 2003 03:23:32 -0400 Original-Received: from accessno42.bodenonline.com (accessno42.bodenonline.com [193.201.16.44]) by stubby.bodenonline.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h9587Xmh008505; Sun, 5 Oct 2003 10:07:34 +0200 Original-To: Miles Bader In-Reply-To: <20031005002529.GC23295@fencepost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:16940 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:16940 >> One of the reasons to have GTK in the first place is to get a >> consistent >> look-and-feel with other GTK/Gnome applications (granted Emacs uses >> different icons). If customizations are needed, we can recommend >> another >> toolkit. > > That's completely absurd. > > Perhaps the main goal of adding GTK support for you was `consistency,' > which > is admirable, but please don't repeat the mistakes of the Gnome > project by > deciding that `consistency' is so overarching a goal that it ought to > trump > all others. No, not the main goal, but one goal. I like customizations, I think Xt got that part right with X resources. In an ideal world, I would have liked GTK to have something similar. But I see where Gnome/GTK is headed, Gnome 1.4 is more customizable than 2.4. Sawfish (the default WM in 1.4) is more customizable than Metacity (default WM in 2.4). Gnome is relying more and more on Gconf, the file based customizations may be removed. It has been stated that the first priority for GTK is to make Gnome work. It may also come to a point where Gnome is needed for GTK apps. Already bug reports on GTK has been answered with "use this and that feature in Gnome". I don't run Gnome, so I use the current customizations for GTK Emacs. But shall we go against the direction GTK/Gnome is headed for? Or just accept the fact that GTK/Gnome has a different agenda an adopt to it? > Anyway, my main point is: document, don't enforce. This is a good advice, but I don't like things that sometimes works and sometimes don't based on different surroundings (i.e. themes). > > I apologize if any of the above seems obnoxious; I'm very grateful for > the > work you've done in adding GTK support to emacs. Actually, I think we agree on what kind of customization we want. The question is, can we get it? Jan D.