From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Improving aesthetics & readability of backquote Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 01:13:18 +0900 Message-ID: References: <20190520085241.GA5136@ACM> <834l5m9b27.fsf@gnu.org> <877eaipjlv.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="258268"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: "Paul W. Rankin" , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org To: Michael Heerdegen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 22 18:21:57 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hTU05-00152O-Bq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 22 May 2019 18:21:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47458 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hTU04-0004sr-Ax for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 22 May 2019 12:21:56 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59091) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hTTrt-0006jQ-NZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 May 2019 12:13:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hTTrs-0000N6-Bm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 May 2019 12:13:29 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-ztdg10012101.me.com ([17.58.6.49]:57849) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hTTrq-00009b-DM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 May 2019 12:13:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=04042017; t=1558541602; bh=y9RFZ534QaOzKLAcT6sg4E7zCzAzSsl7m+hFTaeupeI=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=j52Y0tYGYmxC9V6QhYYyQY1jGc2vx/hTln/AxGGq2ySm2lfnfXltNV1/ucVbfayQd pa4rI6bLxPzWBd0FFgAsR5dVrhYDyeYxswp95TsBs+Yd0vaV6wFRfqiwMaQRCL1+M8 eV7uoEWNNQd9PKibrTYmkfrq/GDO0Ule8CcyMx3qzaIu1M7g771Gdr25dnBtFGdC9n s7OstOzN/jSujuXArUXI3xLMeJzJxt6fzoy3FonjQktfr5U4290ZWqXCkFchHjKZsS CzMjVyU4yuM8Ls36PwzrFIFo4oKOoj3/uzFGfGCet5kcaEDUY5uyrNAmZKq6uMNqBN DTswkAOLk8CXQ== Original-Received: from [10.79.218.172] (unknown [223.38.22.59]) by pv50p00im-ztdg10012101.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 13DDC840CF7; Wed, 22 May 2019 16:13:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16E227) In-Reply-To: <877eaipjlv.fsf@web.de> X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-05-22_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=470 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1812120000 definitions=main-1905220114 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 17.58.6.49 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:236904 Archived-At: 2019. 5. 23. =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 12:57, Michael Heerdegen =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: > "Paul W. Rankin" writes: >=20 >> Me: As a comparatively new user, I remember when learning Emacs >> I found this part ugly and confusing. Here is a suggestion >> from such a perspective on how it could be improved. >=20 > Most people participating here have learned Lisp long time ago, so they > probably don't remember how it was. I learned Common Lisp about a year ago, and is teaching my friend CL. I lear= ned Elisp a bit later, because I tried to customize my Emacs (which I starte= d to use because of SLIME). I think it=E2=80=99s pretty fair for me to say about beginner experiences. > I'm quite sure that ` and , are indeed ugly, make Lisp more complicated > and harder to learn. But they have a huge advantage that more than > outweighs all of that: they make complex list constructions much better > readable. But only after one got used to them. Once you did get used > to this syntax, it's invaluable. I would say, it is indeed ugly; but it wasn=E2=80=99t a pain point. That=E2=80= =99s not something begginers would say it=E2=80=99s complicated or harder to= learn. And, it allows beginners to gripe what =E2=80=98macro=E2=80=99 is, because i= t=E2=80=99s similar enough with real code to show that macros generate =E2=80= =98code=E2=80=99 and different enough with real code to show that macros =E2= =80=98generate=E2=80=99 code. I immediately understood what macros do by just looking at the backquote, an= d my friend is having a similar experience. > My personal opinion is that learners need to get used to it. I'm not > convinced allowing a different simpler syntax would be beneficial: it > would complicate things and maybe keep newbies from learning a lesson > they would need to learn anyway. >=20 >=20 > Michael. >=20