From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuan Fu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 01:07:54 -0800 Message-ID: References: <897ED591-43BC-4029-912A-917E5E9F6930@gmail.com> <87czlarhff.fsf@yahoo.com> <5D13C3C0-C4EB-4769-9685-25122DC9B8DC@gmail.com> <875yr2rfd1.fsf@yahoo.com> <369E183D-87EC-45AB-8352-9A780006561E@gmail.com> <87zgoeps3f.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgoeo91m.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39253"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 02 10:09:04 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n3wrQ-000A3t-1B for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 10:09:04 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47344 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3wrN-00084j-V3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 04:09:01 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48144) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3wqN-0007MV-3q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 04:07:59 -0500 Original-Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::529] (port=36705 helo=mail-pg1-x529.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3wqL-0004wx-Hc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 04:07:58 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id 200so27818027pgg.3 for ; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 01:07:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=hb2GM5BF0mltSgaptwwdjCNQkxZHzD8rlFSN3LzsUuc=; b=OiLLKrSzI/JvFTJAhnc1LgXX0ovJp7ZQax3dMq92bqxlRaA0tMtgzyd6AwYOQlm/fC XWhFSdc5THo8oCcvVeirrQM5LrVAZTIlSh5KwbqmEDtFfm4AMzrOPjaacXeGsdTqzRY4 NiJ6JgSXwyRajmwyAQ4WMzgp2cber4jRC1QfRW7s/D1f+C2vqmczySqzspuf3JRWgmyO y3XEZswBT44ABPS7+b4m7YQ/InTwWbquWRtHKnAP8KQeFm4OX6+EpkUnQRzBfbD4X4n6 445LRV8BbSp0DE2zBxHOSt7BjtmLF3OOjBVGlwo/061w6FP7LuTXVBf1yXp7nAVEFdQu 5Dtw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=hb2GM5BF0mltSgaptwwdjCNQkxZHzD8rlFSN3LzsUuc=; b=QQN7o7wpjiBQQ7nCreHNPxdwgyaBsfaRxQzTxj1RQnx7i9bpkrqIt7imKjnkf5af10 MRDJ6PGLg+gYUUG4wcaSw66zPq3SEsBwuZSBPhvPa9B49Z/lYqdrone7thiNZMtjjdvk erbyHCiR6jJb9eyU0jHB1T6XH1ycm5G1OlbQc36yoy823DtXClgoi27/X4GdB5F8vZ8H AbphKv8Qk+t1sdS78hLQKkY8NooxYrhx9S+fhjCuTt78JCJX7WtKNI7zekAl9yGzyWG6 DqoBrNcjo2Cr3u71VVzE7/OQNotrMMLyN1uFYZ7kac9nGvjtpsvKFf9jnHZpQqyEssn/ WnNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531p/PlCkAxH0/eV0pLb8Ic50sTVvyEZHezVNQSx6+soXt0DkcMg WaXpBXF9ob8vFr3p6STSfaY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw0r3g7EElrIduutXBROACcfXHPXew2rrWGFFXSBCJcKaF2EyCB/fiU5kt5PPAQ8dzy73nW3g== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:18a8:b0:4bb:97b8:55b2 with SMTP id x40-20020a056a0018a800b004bb97b855b2mr39331643pfh.15.1641114476140; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 01:07:56 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:1700:2ec7:8c90:a095:5ec2:29e1:ba48]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t20sm8942574pgu.1.2022.01.02.01.07.55 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 02 Jan 2022 01:07:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87zgoeo91m.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::529 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::529; envelope-from=casouri@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x529.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 6 X-Spam_score: 0.6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.6 / 5.0 requ) DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:283869 Archived-At: > On Jan 2, 2022, at 12:07 AM, Po Lu wrote: >=20 > Yuan Fu writes: >=20 >> Keybinding settings and the rest. >=20 > You can't use `setq' to customize key definitions either, right? My point is that all configurations would be in one commented block of = code, instead of separated into different places. >=20 >> Setup wizard produces some code, the user can modify them and put = them >> in init.el. They can later modify or even delete them as then see >> fit. It=E2=80=99s flexible, straightforward, simple. Why do we have = to involve >> custom and all its machinery? >=20 > Because new users tend to not understand Emacs Lisp, so any future > customization they do will necessarily be through custom. >=20 > And please don't say they "should" learn Emacs Lisp -- some people may > find that enjoyable but lack the time, and some others may simply not > want to at all. Asking people to learn Emacs Lisp to make future > customizations is simply unacceptable as part of a setup guide for = _new_ > users. Maybe that=E2=80=99s true for some users. I had my fair share of = struggle and confusion with custom when I started using Emacs. IME a few = lines of setq, global-set-key and xxx-mode are simpler and more = predicable than custom. Neither of us has surveyed enough number of new = Emacs users, so I don=E2=80=99t think we can make definitive claims. For = example, I don=E2=80=99t think it is unacceptable to expect a user to = understand what does setq, global-set-key or xxx-mode means. >=20 >> If we use custom, the key binding part is in somewhere in init.el, = the >> rest are blended together with other random configurations in either >> custom file or the custom-save-varaible form in init.el. The custom >> part has to be changed through Customize (the comment says users >> shouldn=E2=80=99t modify the form by hand, and if they do, custom = restores the >> change anyway). >=20 > Customize will find the form, no matter where it actually is in = init.el. > Alternatively, you could set up a custom file. It is hard for the user to find them. Plus other problems with custom = and Customize described above that you don=E2=80=99t seem to mind. = Aren=E2=80=99t they confusing for even a not-so-new user? They surely = confused and annoyed me for a long time back then. Yuan