From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers (was: "Why is emacs so square?") Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:05:30 +0900 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="102045"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: ndame , Richard Stallman , Ahmed Khanzada , "joseph.h.garvin@gmail.com" , "stefan@marxist.se" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" , "eliz@gnu.org" , "drew.adams@oracle.com" To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 19 10:06:31 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ4yD-000QR4-LT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 10:06:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39000 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ4yC-00040f-Ku for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:06:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48530) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ4xR-0003Zi-3I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:05:41 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ4xP-0005OE-IX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:05:40 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-ztdg10011901.me.com ([17.58.6.50]:46683) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ4xP-0005Iy-2T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:05:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1587283536; bh=NhrRdsLjjRl3HxqFb1hceBpbaS29VLG4cJD2S6v2Kfs=; h=Content-Type:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=z42ypvlHN1xd4psynJ1ey3B0N10Sh7emupXJzEZDmdv6zzbUKT9COoK2TcskW0TBc AsxOZsQ2NwKAkjASOhMoztSJa0Mv4x0KffXG3Ab34/j0Y+e4HsSxtC3stRvcVblkwD 909NHXRzgDMCZk/5ROs2zOXdyO58yAGG/aWkJBHN9gnJ8QOqgU/jsflFKIPkctwNyj uaHu+YeE+EK7/W7XNSZtXhLfKg4ZdbHYYjxfHVNJmxf/xd1+8aorXuoCuCGVUDaAoS K5pzjX0Vc40rkU7WKAwfTIgbQBWPp7bPxlFRR+cSfQeEpeN5axVczaKB3Nvu6+cYHd xbls1UVVMSO0Q== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.2] (unknown [1.230.108.64]) by pv50p00im-ztdg10011901.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D65B780028E; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:05:33 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-19_01:2020-04-17, 2020-04-19 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=18 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=815 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2004190074 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.6.50; envelope-from=pcr910303@icloud.com; helo=pv50p00im-ztdg10011901.me.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 3.11 and newer X-Received-From: 17.58.6.50 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247296 Archived-At: Po Lu 작성: > ndame writes: > >> Looks good. These are the changes Emacs needs, so it has a nicer first >> impression for users who come from mainstream tools to give it a try. > > I don't think the general goal is for Emacs to imitate popular tools, but > instead to make it a mainstream tool. To achieve this, we do need to > make Emacs more friendly for newcomers, but we shouldn't erase the > traits that make Emacs unique (such as extreme extensibility and > customizability). > > IOW, everything added to make Emacs more friendly should be optional > (but easily discoverable), and should not break backwards-compatiblity with > existing configurations. I personally find that the stance of trying to not breaking anything is one of the big reasons that Emacs has a nonusable-without-configuration UX. Major version numbers are there for a reason… and we can expect for annoyed people to set some variables to get old behavior. > Emacs has endured for 40+ years. I doubt that without the Emacsen I > remember using with squeals of delight (Epoch, XEmacs, Emacs 19), and > the various improvements they curtailed that Emacs would still be where > it is now. Let's help Emacs endure another 40 years.