From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 21:12:39 -0500 Message-ID: References: <20140103152117.GA16679@c3po> <20140104082857.GA22010@thyrsus.com> <3096922F-ACE6-4D70-BDB9-F6110FF8C62A@gmail.com> <7cecbad5-1f01-4c73-811a-aa11cc21d0a0@default> <70ad79fc-f0ea-4d57-8866-79be6362731f@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DA04A8E4-0A7D-4182-A8B6-FC714B217944"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389319973 21420 80.91.229.3 (10 Jan 2014 02:12:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:12:53 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs-Devel devel To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 10 03:13:00 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Rak-0004qG-BP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:12:58 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54946 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Raj-0002J5-Ep for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:12:57 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35000) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Rac-0002Id-7I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:12:54 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1RaX-0000Sc-EL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:12:50 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qc0-x232.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232]:36610) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1RaX-0000SX-7i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:12:45 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-qc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id i17so3416225qcy.23 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 18:12:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=6/Omfq8C0nw5kIOCcB0YvqDUulZ1qtZS3qjLZPkKZA4=; b=b4W20Xyq4IUU5EaET3+/YQaLxQOcUEAGYNOeZRheTVkVH6hZYCtiGKL3WuVVXuN1s2 lFtVvfL4y+zrYMZdEKOFYDT2Uem8SUPT80PSgZeq+fT7ceBBk/8qESh9nHAeTlebeAVm lnPXd7Cl+VfzrYaLtgYiM6cVVsflsKX5EFGBhc7F9Av5s/Ky9pYqu+RdBCqQsuOfHAbR FXEuMc/2xQ9z1P+AjxcN+FyriRi6AYNhqLMTyxjuWW9vTdeY6Wqr+l2HDp1HFmLqqwrw jfVGJZOn+0yF6pQ7rU7jwaQHaKH+/95+dAr6vx+zlyFH9MXierI7FtMTdEmfvc/tETRo xIUA== X-Received: by 10.224.165.133 with SMTP id i5mr1875116qay.75.1389319964473; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 18:12:44 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [10.0.2.128] (c-71-58-245-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net. [71.58.245.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id q4sm9424712qac.18.2014.01.09.18.12.41 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jan 2014 18:12:41 -0800 (PST) X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <70ad79fc-f0ea-4d57-8866-79be6362731f@default> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167992 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_DA04A8E4-0A7D-4182-A8B6-FC714B217944 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jan 7, 2014, at 3:31 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > Concrete suggestions about that might well be helpful. I had some suggestions or questions back in 2005 or thereabouts, when I = was less familiar with Emacs, and I asked questions on this mailing list. Perhaps now the time is = better (although I have less time). Many things are vastly improved from what they were back then - better = default key bindings, ELPA, copy&paste with other apps working out of = the box, and so on. =20 At this time, my concrete suggestion I would have is to make semantic, = CEDET and etags work out-of-the-box for all major programming paradigms, = and make them work without noticeable performance penalty. Standard = IDEs like Netbeans, Eclipse or Xcode give me that. Emacs 24 has come a = long way, but it's not quite there yet. For instance, I can enable = Semantic from the menu, but then I'd try C-M-/ for a completion, next to = [win ...] in nsterm.m, and that doesn't give me all the members of the = class of "win", in the correct capitalization. In .c files, I get at = least some helpful echo area messages, but scrolling gets sluggish. = Netbeans doesn't do that. And it just-in-time compiles, marks syntax = errors automatically right in the source code, and so on, and so forth. The second suggestion is better project management, integrated with = Semantic. Some ingredients, like Speedbar and Desktop, are there, but = they do not provide an integrated experience.=20 Other people will have other suggestions... > What you suggest > is not a bad goal, but the starting point should not be to short-sell > newbie Emacs users (not suggesting your approach does that; I don't > know). They are as bright as past newbies, no doubt. Indeed, that's not what I meant. It's just that even intelligent people = prefer to spend their cognitive resources on the actual tasks they are = employed to do, or the tasks they intend to do, rather than to learn the = tool. We're in a world where software has become obvious to use, or at = least very discoverable. > You > cannot just pick up Emacs expecting it to do what you are used to, > without being disappointed or missing the boat. The idea in Aquamacs is that you can do that, and transition to faster = routines as you go along. It's probably true that the proportion of highly proficient users is = smaller, but the overall number of users is greater. > One has only to look at the questions on a site such as > StackOverflow, not especially those about Emacs, but generally > (and apparently about PHP in particular), to see that some users > expect instant familiarity with a product without any effort - not > even a cursory look at the doc or a Google search. The SO site > leaders are continually lamenting the poor quality of (some) > questions and askers.=20 Yes, programming has become very much a copy&paste (sorry, kill&yank) = effort. For many programming projects, that is sufficient. You won't = get to hack away at Google, Inc., or at Oracle Corp that way, but that's = probably OK.=20 --Apple-Mail=_DA04A8E4-0A7D-4182-A8B6-FC714B217944 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMijCCBjQw ggQcoAMCAQICAR4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoTDVN0YXJ0 Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNpZ25pbmcxKTAn BgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVoX DTE3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVowgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSsw KQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTaWduaW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFy dENvbSBDbGFzcyAxIFByaW1hcnkgSW50ZXJtZWRpYXRlIENsaWVudCBDQTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcN AQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMcJg8zOLdgasSmkLhOrlr6KMoOMpohBllVHrdRvEg/q6r8jR+EK 75xCGhR8ToREoqe7zM9/UnC6TS2y9UKTpT1v7RSMzR0t6ndl0TWBuUr/UXBhPk+Kmy7bI4yW4urC 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