From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: format use inquiry Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 10:35:20 +0900 Message-ID: References: <7e7f068e4e.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <2FDCF579-44BC-49AD-985F-14AE5C654645@gmail.com> <2CC7167F-53F8-4676-BA51-4C68F25108BC@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1498959387 30670 195.159.176.226 (2 Jul 2017 01:36:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 01:36:27 +0000 (UTC) To: Emacs development discussions Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 02 03:36:20 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRTo9-0007SY-4q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Jul 2017 03:36:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56396 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRToE-0007qm-CB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 21:36:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59523) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRTnM-0007dk-Ef for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 21:35:29 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRTnJ-0008RE-9n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 21:35:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x229.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::229]:36099) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRTnJ-0008Qq-34 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 21:35:25 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id q86so83928793pfl.3 for ; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 18:35:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=xcdm/zdAiOFtbFr4QPgq9q9umEMKaclJ6KD1kn3ZKxo=; b=vZAvvbIcOTJx5PL2GMdgzt19CZ76mwu0uSookMIz8r2p4WxCZaOYxE+VSrGNMtK6Vd uRgvo3RLwz+7aHb0tpWVv0ufmIYzWw+w4aS+0EhCXY2TOnnKe3vTgypsgVADnC1lYMxd 0EpPFbyel+dxaYLjHNyzGlKBF37v/sfy1yTSjf4T7/xhyO0TWKQVmeSBhIP12qVkcxrS ejg03UP01tFWIRO5DxntIOcAdNjYASvx1SrOYBFsW28gt2jJmsa9l8GJF/bgZMhk+Z+V g9MrTYQULhj1fKkhcTUCAn/mnQXxkIOoGolsLYaQrVxTDn17yF0GOUYCsPLatCOkkvp8 WIkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=xcdm/zdAiOFtbFr4QPgq9q9umEMKaclJ6KD1kn3ZKxo=; b=ildSpdrMYAqu/U4GtwV4xzjj8mvOmDn76xhZukXo3d7Z79j0VuZBSALbP9fZtsuAcZ 5h2xClnRJTAnDpn1ZKOXrReln+J0Z7GEFjkLuaSN2Cd8eXnJj4PWKQuM960toxSj/Jfg 9NAZWbxaAGxR85p2mHxQNKY1/DAAESimyM6fUzll9ElLxI1oI6ZebuuhaZbgeshgoYLg xoYBB3g5udcoRv8PIxT8H2Q/paJm9fvSLhKPMCDjjQThHMsKPis24wUsEj1G7zIED3cI duAymDizoE9Ir5sFhy1OBDDCzMR0D9U9Ocmgj3sb4fTYk3ak0j8qsLmyYA3tTJcoWc3z PlrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113xPVAWaGbC8hg/JF1LnUaEdHBe+xFxAL/MpEsPv+0DTc3B5L6B GP+Doa+COrEROCGr7Oc= X-Received: by 10.84.218.134 with SMTP id r6mr3062495pli.49.1498959323878; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 18:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.24.55] (pl2587.ag0304.nttpc.ne.jp. [128.53.196.27]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 79sm28933260pgg.46.2017.07.01.18.35.22 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 01 Jul 2017 18:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::229 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:216081 Archived-At: > On Jul 2, 2017, at 0:43, Drew Adams wrote: > My mention of (the -P flag in CL) was essentially off-topic for your > thread about localization. (But it could still be > somewhat on-topic for a thread about `format'.) This thread happens to be about "format", as the title and original = exchanges indicate. I was explicitly asking about a specific use of format in url creation = that has no relation to l10n and got several replies ranging from "don't = spell out the urls" to "do spell out the urls"... After reviewing the whole emacs lisp code found in the distribution I = found that no other files in the whole distribution used a format trick = to add an "s" to "http" when creating "https" urls (especially *none* of = the code that was heavily used for https etc.), and I also found that = all the places where both http and https urls were present they were all = fully spelled out. So considering that even if the code is valid and considered acceptable, = 1) general use of 40 years of elisp having not produced such = distribution code and 2) the package.el code being ridden with such = "smart uses" of format/concat and the like that in fact created errors = in external strings (I did not check the internal strings), the = conclusion was that such code should be fixed so that other developers = who check it don't get bad ideas. Unless you have more powerful = arguments, that kind of settles the issue for me. In a different thread I also mentioned that I started straightening out = strings in package.el because I had found plural/singular errors in it = fully *knowing* that i18n is not available so that any "micro" l10n = preparation of this type is bound to not be super useful *right now*, = but currently that's the only part where I can contribute (I put aside = the few lines of trivial code that I was allowed to contribute in ns-win = and subr-x). What I want to reach is a state where Emacs is fully localizable. There = are many entry points and few people interested in producing relevant = code, so I have to do with what I have (no knowledge of C but I'm = starting to work on that, little knowledge of elisp, 20 years of = localization work as an amateur in FOSS projects, 15 as a professional). Last June, Philipp Stephani has implemented "field numbers for `format' = so that argument indices can be explicitly specified" to take care of = word order modifications (among other issues). I don't think a lot of = people have started using that but that's an excellent and necessary = start. We need a way to gettext to extract external strings, we need a = way to display localized strings, we need to straighten out strings so = that they are extractable by gettext and we need to localize them = (including docstrings eventually). l10n itself is a huge endeavor: based = on the state of the manuals, I'm estimating the volume at 500,000 words = for the code alone, and 2,000,000 words total when including the manual. = So the code that allows for that is actually a relatively small part of = the work. But without the code, we're stuck. So if you have an interest in the endeavor and concrete ideas, please = come forward: do as Philipp did by producing relevant code, or do as I = do, by fixing little things that will need to be fixed anyway. Jean-Christophe=20=