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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -5 X-Spam_score: -0.6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FAKE_REPLY_C=1.486, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:06:05 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310538 Archived-At: >[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > Of course, but nobody suggests it is all-in. `length' is not a keyworded > > in CL either. > >Oops, I thought it was -- but the time when I implemented and used >Common Lisp was 40 years ago. > >I am pretty sure `member' used keyword arguments, and I think that >getting behavior equivalent to traditional Lisp `member' required >specifying a keyword argument. I never forgot that, during that >period, because I got reminded of it almost every day. > > > But it is convenient to have keywords in > > some places, like for example in define-minor-mode or make-process, or > > even "new" define-keymap. > >I would not object to using keyword arguments for functions like that >-- complex and cumbersome to use, and not used often. Well, than we pretty much agree 100% about keyword args. 40 years ago I was playing in the woods, but as I have learned Lisp some barely 2 or 3 years ago, thanks to Emacs Lisp, that is pretty much how I understand keyword arguments and why they are used, so that is why it felt a bit strange when you said you don't want them, but I understand now that you might have felt aversion if they were used everywhere; it certainly is a PITA in functions with small number of arguments. Question is also, if Maclisp was developed further, to current day, if and how it would evolve itself. As time goes buy we discover new idioms, patterns, have different needs etc. These things changes and new ideas emerges; it is very much probable that Maclisp itself would look differently than what it was when CL was conceived. I am sure they wouldn't have those paires of complementatry functions (remove-if/remove-if-not) which make for a big part of CL verbosity too.