From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On the adoption of transient.el Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 09:01:35 +0200 Message-ID: References: <877di4on3d.fsf@posteo.net> <87im1oy6mw.fsf@posteo.net> <87y29hihea.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3022"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Jesse Millwood , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "T.V Raman" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 05 09:02:39 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mBXOo-0000cr-MW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2021 09:02:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57484 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mBXOn-0006Jr-8O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2021 03:02:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46826) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mBXNs-0005by-Il for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2021 03:01:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-am6eur05olkn2026.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.91.26]:4577 helo=EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mBXNq-0004aR-IO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2021 03:01:40 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=RY5JPS86BTU+LGxqLGiJf6wtShHsF6HdMbZZCdVpHA2j0t2+VrD+ZCvFZAT8w1z4CieWwnbXD3Lapre0bUWTGeAhj+Qw1AWG8REQs2vniv7kIijz1oR3O0fSzxqfSK7lrt/j2WNn9ThGSuSJYWCx/ZbzE/kwwW+0Ho/PUw+7fQG4o/H5saX8EymQ28mcSm5RsZJ0jYYo5YSaxZqNpS7BGxslusEoiXzyJduEQKHK4lfMluyLW1zs9iKMz9nVDnUmJw2r9EPpKA+AiBVvQm8iuPaXvJOY9C+as3kdNX9b+jQeh5q9iTxNAUYTRKYkCi6Lk+RAmPLzwxq4kcO5e851ZQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=MdL5fBtNueUfBiOQGN/UX74PxyRZTbhFRbkmyP/kCHU=; b=Kx98rPgOO8AJbh92fqErkYclAlfBjnDEspOUuHo1qF1ryjF8/IvRJT1VK0XM/nkCBxbwK9JIHyd7F51erbeJkfujz5xlKzfAf38g6dZqf4A4VvPXB5267SJVvykCJhbZ7S+TSDa5jWFnL05ZOrOGGoa3hUPot1qh47wV22B9Of0aHbFdvOZf2b1Ya86OmCzCR1og58O2f3gfakGwIIB8jj0SfGydGttkTD4yLwnLXSnxQDWxTPO7X7UBTnKcTquVoDuhbmGqxRlzCfe36ARBMXqtpU+peC74ChmB90CSKyStOyK6CuTyZ1aTm27sMJIWmUem95HGIkVMncaG/0+Pvw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=MdL5fBtNueUfBiOQGN/UX74PxyRZTbhFRbkmyP/kCHU=; b=sRrhakBI7gA/9RkB9/rHWFphn67/ork0nLtP3PMg/zbggnnq63VBQBkqQ4WTet5MltP5wDp1YUHdA3l0qDEz6DGsB8rDQLClArVyuPP25bBabmlkBMG9LKMPvCHFKQXFA2Af3XTwUiyfzSWVJ3iE2EInzvo4kY80Kgr/nkQthYuWijeZRE/6jhWe3jlB4ldTSwOxa8k0HCu2o0cWgWx7+dPQg4PHpYoyKFWwqGuNGU7oTiZxuwwENFugggCX+bU00+G8ucx3NN3MaoXYhaNqr+6e5aonjIlYj5v8L2IHPQ8flQm6PM/9HrZGqcZHYakhAtWHENwvoJJSvzfWJr0B1Q== Original-Received: from AM6EUR05FT023.eop-eur05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc11::52) by AM6EUR05HT212.eop-eur05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc11::332) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4394.16; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:01:36 +0000 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc11::4d) by AM6EUR05FT023.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc11::352) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4394.16 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:01:36 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:6C904E7D0F7302924F1AB633BC94FBC055DD240557DBA00828F02B41D7A4F63F; UpperCasedChecksum:39FEBD0BE0E0E7125BEFA941543FB6ED8E81BC6CD0102D1E1DE77DAA077A7043; SizeAsReceived:7755; Count:46 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6558:f201:6d1a:3f39]) by AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6558:f201:6d1a:3f39%2]) with mapi id 15.20.4394.016; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:01:36 +0000 In-Reply-To: (T. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:272074 Archived-At: "T.V Raman" writes: > Jesse Millwood writes: > > > I was more motivated to get it solved because where for you it was a > pain-point, for me it was a show-stopper:-) > > Jonas' help got me over the hump. > > Stepping back, yes, transient, especially when encountered first via > magit looks complex. But that complexity comes from how much more > complex git is --- what transient does well is to make the large > bucket-loads of git commandline options more tractable. > > It's also a very good attempt at bringing features of "direct > manipulation interfaces" to the emacs world --- I use the term "direct > manipulation" intentionally, that is actually what people mean when they > jump to a GUI. But transient shows that it is possible to implement such > interfaces within the Emacs paradigm by stretching the boundaries a > little, and where we do feel discomfort with respect to over-stretching > those boundaries (losing isearch is an example), we can claw it back. > > Note that things like dired in emacs are also direct-manipulation > interfaces --- they just preserve *all* of the goodness of Emacs. > > The other package that is similar to transient with many advantages is > hydra --- though I haven't seen any hydras as complex as the transients > that Git forces magit to require. Are you sure it is Git that forces magit to be complex? I think it is rather the design choice. Magit exposes 1-1 git commands as a pick-from-the-list interface. I am not saying anything against, but the interface to Git commands coould have been abstracted into something that more resembles Dired or some other ux model. Observe, I have nothing against Magit, I am just saying that nothing is forced. It is all choice of how one prefer to use things. There are other guis to Git, by accident I discovered one two days ago (tips from a Linux magazine): https://github.com/francescmm/GitQlient No idea how good that thing is or other tools, I don't use any of those, but it is fully possible to create ux that does not expose git commands directly. Observe that I don't say it should be done, I am not against magit or for some Qt gui, I am just saying, the ux and level of abstraction is a design choice :).