From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:37:41 +0200 Message-ID: References: <8b4cf399-d1ca-8669-2a78-06813100b987@yandex.ru> <29c12300-db02-2770-e3f6-593998ea98fc@yandex.ru> <20210907062039.GA4097@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36618"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 07 15:17:35 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mNayj-0009Ek-Dr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:17:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50966 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNayi-00064L-Cq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 09:17:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46062) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNaMG-0006a6-RG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 08:37:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oln040092067059.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.67.59]:61981 helo=EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNaMD-0004Tc-KD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 08:37:48 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=C1+4lJbSloWaGTVRJ0l+epVQzV9L9rLi0WygykG5FUgN+B5NfivrYSzd/BSU5a8sWyCb7ioe84tzDVcApxwqOnyRcGACBKniNCi9AWf7sM/PtxxjL5qIFgFYhPH8tde55libDqvZ1jxjTkLEYAzUVGqJpoDEfqCusW8nqmAMHEE96PJFT8YHNlQO3BGCFJJQFfnGnhpRPCysUGG0WRg+b+0TDqECK+AtxnI7psArVG9h/d70CXWyqD6GOPRKByBxPvfmOYLx24OQm6L/8Poq5G5OlvS2BbOipGPTsPAEmAd3phi/8serOhuyelUwMpGea27N6cBwVx6qGVkyRobx5A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=w3dAf8tu2ueUzlcXwmz+daB6DzPC0F6vPnfPvLs610A=; b=FioW+fb645h5bVwBrBPT2zGJzsaBiGeNV33+yjryi0j7UkCiytjyag1xaN8uYkAzqRk2ULEB26F+hJOuiVCkKoNngp9305+jxConXyw/NGtQZcyrXdYSdU0tJkGLt3OsPfjH1hnewEZXMyb1WP5Wq2lKp9jSSLKW6o2RGu3k4GbmNH5AdR5NCkHV+KyTfm5hxxKSI7UYs7+7RbB+lMaVPffGPuvRqA2e+Pg7VEiSd59skuhOsYASz0FeIM7h3wRu3LAix0XLpsVAyGqVu7FJQ4Q1f6lsYTNVQlmWj7N7UvAbnGnP7X6ZOtpEuqPRNyxLsmkSc7dMiar8O/Pm14x+gg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=w3dAf8tu2ueUzlcXwmz+daB6DzPC0F6vPnfPvLs610A=; b=M3yAqwBFfJn/1Scouy38gE8kWwxoao+wHgVMtT1V1Kx+DFqWTrDNDB6o2H43nrglNPXjshwqJ5nW/rdlbV6Nb7IesR5F839ME1pOcP6gTe7B3P2ZWSd4+4vPojgqCA3KTMvMYroPEjpisuqvKyNf10ShWrLRoj/GCotP0wGgEX10Ftid2WNv0Gb2VLFUxXgQwqtrXev6ul0LgUI0bsAGhqZazbLxVmAJVd2WoDQMSETZ5Loc3wn3RKuak07D6Wphzk9TZrJ8NnBS2/CKggBwu8A1NvD+JMAE0ytVbQq3Bj3x1ETTkPEMMxSFHrkQRAFtZwoRGIshlPIM8HyOaEL7Aw== Original-Received: from HE1EUR02FT010.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e1d::52) by HE1EUR02HT224.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e1d::201) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4478.19; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 12:37:42 +0000 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e1d::4e) by HE1EUR02FT010.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e1d::249) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4478.19 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 12:37:42 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:453F47865C0BCAC02AFD55E42F6534BC66F612A07D8D982B0F4ED6E3975B0524; UpperCasedChecksum:D18E9D1F4B87F4F115E93A9969383751268D61E1FC488DEABAAC055A0F1F020D; SizeAsReceived:8020; Count:46 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c55c:ece5:bed2:a9dc]) by AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c55c:ece5:bed2:a9dc%9]) with mapi id 15.20.4478.026; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 12:37:42 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20210907062039.GA4097@tuxteam.de> (tomas@tuxteam.de's message of "Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:20:39 +0200") X-TMN: [mSs+x73TKkpa4GXPXJefNJB5rh2lOf+e] X-ClientProxiedBy: AM6P195CA0107.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:86::48) To AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87h7ewblyi.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Original-Received: from pascal.homepc (81.232.177.30) by AM6P195CA0107.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:86::48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4478.19 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 12:37:41 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 46 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: c98fc442-1a73-470f-37e2-08d971fc490a X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: HE1EUR02HT224: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: GGUiVXR3phOPkq9hU2LuEGc6rxojPYDZyRjmxhfTDP8dT43zOVPYv8inqc3WESZXXew3fo+ATpFfhqvtBVaMnWe1UazbRKqSbRGyNlzwxBSxKJriPtaivxuEiA8+e6eoeFZcsFZ93vJDk90A7YU2Br0+k+qSOX5W6LvDw3YnVIhxbtyIydPD8kxINkFPmnD+x67YQvh/LQTQQ+X3dbHGZvXf1sAtuJ7aShBaggFFNB+8GNDmuF63A8zQydLt4VKPY/SJkGZ4QJfhls6CMq9eMqXCWwya4eVNdvA/Z3RXJ98rFp/uANJ2vTuj50fXec/ngaLFw3S8642laNJM+6rXDB0I8T949//qTC/ij/5i7t34JPXuufMjoLRK2XwU6wpD1km9Msrqat9mVdCi6J+WLNuxoLm8Pd9vdnn4IKw4CM2oYdIMBFz7sVZj9PzwOcx5 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: ukVzaV9le/udF4kbOnwjKVA0ns8OgvMvCiFAwEGV3l5ksh43g1OFpYMuBmO4qcupFAw56BNgtq+jEXfQuYYb3MwNA+9GWyhv7BCtJ6TUX6xP0mtQ10x4gEuXN68ILZl3JPZwCVDypGIWg+rqDfQuGQ== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c98fc442-1a73-470f-37e2-08d971fc490a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2021 12:37:42.5528 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1EUR02FT010.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR02HT224 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.92.67.59; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:274235 Archived-At: writes: > On Tue, Sep 07, 2021 at 06:44:07AM +0200, Stefan Kangas wrote: >> Richard Stallman writes: >> >> > > By the way, how much work would it be to switch C-x and M-x prefixes to C-space and >> > > M-space respectively. >> > >> > We will not change C-x and M-x in the Emacs defaults, >> > nor C-SPC and M-SPC. Those are important commands. >> > >> > It is ok for a CUA theme to change them. >> >> This is completely backwards. It is precisely because it is important >> that C-x should be changed. > > Or forwards. > > What would the C committee say if I proposed to exchange ',' and ';' in the > syntax? > > After all, my keyboard (a DE layout) needs a shift to access the semicolon, > which I use much more in C code than the comma [1]. > > I am a bit confused by this default thing, especially by this new incarnation > of a "defaults war". Each time it feels like a turf war. > > OTOH, it is clear that defaults aren't carved in stone. On the other, it > should be clear that defaults change slowly wherever there is an established > community of users, and each one takes its process and its timing. It may > take years, and a couple of proofs of concept. > > Tab-indent mode looks like low hanging fruit by now (but there have been > voices against changing it which have to be taken seriously). I don't really > see the point for C-x now, but hey, that's me. I didn't propose to change C-x from the defaults. :D I asked how difficult it would be to change prefixes C-x and M-x to something, in hope that someone will tell me that there is a function that can switch prefix so that all other keybindings are following. Not because I want a new default in Emacs, but because it could be easy as a starting point for a so called alternative setup :).