From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Motif support Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 23:47:00 +0100 Message-ID: References: <878rwhbb91.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <878rwhbb91.fsf@yahoo.com> <83ee699irm.fsf@gnu.org> <87r1a99icp.fsf@yahoo.com> <835yrl9gob.fsf@gnu.org> <8735mozy5c.fsf@gnus.org> <87czlrvbf5.fsf@gmail.com> <87ilvflkyc.fsf@yahoo.com> <83pmpnv22i.fsf@gnu.org> <837dbvuql6.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34412"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, enometh@meer.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 23 23:47:48 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n0WsD-0008fO-Ae for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:283050 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Arthur Miller >> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, enometh@meer.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:47:09 +0100 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> > That was basically the second time Po Lu implemented something in the >> > display engine, and the first time he had to deal with layout code, so >> > some guidance should be expected, for a complex piece of software that >> > takes more than 40K LOC. From my POV, the guidance he needed was >> > relatively minor; most of the discussion was about the various >> > implementation strategies. >> Of course guidance is needed and expected. I have no problem with that, I just >> reac on him saying it is missinformation to say that Emacs is not so easy to >> hack. You say it's complex, he says it's easy :). > > That's not a contradiction, however strange it may sound. Doing > localized changes is relatively easy even in a complex piece of > software. The guidance that is needed is just to point to the > relevant functions. > >> And as said, amount of time he seems to have to spend on all kind of different >> OS:s, Emacs parts and all different discussion seems to be quite >> tremendous. Expecting everyone to have that time is unrealistic. > > The time you need for a change depends on how simple or complex the > change is. Not everyone is expected to make significant changes, > there's a lot of place for relatively simple ones. > >> But yes of course the guidance is needed for people new to it, and everyone >> needs help; I have got help, and everyone else gets help, so it should be of >> course. But nobody needs accusation for spreading missinformation when saying >> things are complex and could be simpler. > > Accusations aside, I think your impression of the Emacs code being an > impenetrable undocumented mess is way too extreme. I didn't say it is "impentrenable undocumented mess", I said it could be nicer. I also said it has got much better in later years, but 10k sloc files with lots of if-defs are not very nice.