From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gitlab Migration Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 07:02:21 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87h7fcnmq0.fsf@posteo.net> <87o89kw0hl.fsf@gnus.org> <0c369b25-aedd-1fdf-4813-503f27e42c7c@yandex.ru> <874kbbznwv.fsf@gmail.com> <8735qvwcqt.fsf@gmail.com> <877dg65j3d.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32246"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Daniel Fleischer , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tim Cross Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 28 07:03:28 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mJqV4-0008Ee-Rk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273222 Archived-At: Tim Cross writes: > Arthur Miller writes: > >> Tim Cross writes: >> >>> Daniel Fleischer writes: >>> >>>> Tim Cross [2021-08-27 Fri 11:01] *wrote*: >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure this is true. I think virtually all developers are forced >>>>> to suffer email, but a gorwing number don't use it. Often, all the >>>>> discussions, notifications, comments etc are actually consumed via a >>>>> mobile 'app'. For these users, logging into their inbox is frustrating >>>>> and inconvenient because their inbox is full of pointless and old >>>>> messages/notifications/alerts they have already seen/received via other >>>>> channels. For these users, the primary reason they have an email address >>>>> is to have something to put into the 'login' box for web services they >>>>> use. Telling these users to use email to submit a patch is very similar >>>>> to me being told when I started using email that I had to send in a hard >>>>> copy via snail mail. >>>> >>>> It's a very intersting point about what email represent to different >>>> people that arising from this discussion. I'm half your age and use >>>> email for 2 reasons: >>>> >>>> 1. It's an identify for today's web. As such, it's becoming the main >>>> tool for tracking (especially as cookies phase out), so I use >>>> multiple boxes and regard them is disposable and spam-infected. >>>> >>>> 2. Receiving official documents from institutions. >>>> >>>> I don't talk to family, friends or coworkers via mail. Personally, I >>>> think it's old, not secure or private by default, very inconsistent >>>> (HTML rendering is arbitrary vs. text, multiple MUA) and just can't >>>> imagine using it as a software engineering tool. >>>> >>> >>> Yep, that mirrors what I'm seeing as well. Many younger users really use >>> it primarily to provide a unique identifier (login) and for when they >>> have to deal with institutions that don't provide other alternatives. >>> >>> The other interesting trend I'm seeing is with many companies now >>> working to minimise email as part of their internal/external workflows. >>> Many companies are finding it a huge resource sink, cause of unnecessary >>> stress/pressure on staff, source of significant security concerns and a >>> real problem for records management. >>> >>> From the Emacs project perspective, providing alternative web based >>> workflows similar to what github/gitlab/sourceHut provide would be >>> beneficial. The challenge seems to be in finding software which meets >>> FSF requirements. In particular, a solution which is mature enough and >>> is not based on non-free Javascript libraries. >> >> I wouldn't agree with you that young people don't know how to use email. That is >> something you are deriving yourself. Sure Instagram, Facebook, Dicord, Twitter, >> Slack etc might be very popular as a mean of communication, but saying that >> young people don't know how to use email is stretching it too far. > > I never said they don't know how to use email - I said they were not > interested in using email. They use it when they are forced to, but it Ok. Fair enough. It was maybe oversimplification there by me. > is not their preferred choice. We even asked students what they wanted > and when you broke that information down by age, nearly 80% of under 25s > indicated they would prefer non-email based communications. This is only > one data point from one institution and only for one year, so there > could be sampling error, cultural variation and possibly question bias > based on wording etc. However, the results were in line with other > feedback and comments. The preference for email also increased with age > - older students showed a higher preference for email, which means the > results could be related to experience and user maturity - we won't know > until more time has passed. > > I cannot provide specific details because the information is classified > as sensitive and internal only. It was part of analysis done at a > smaller University (approx 25k students) where the main objective was to > determine if providing students with an email account (actually o365 > account), was beneficial or not. The result was that the majority of > students were not interested in the email account (either because they > already had one or because email was not a comms channel they cared > about), but they did want the o365 account because of the access it gave > them to other things, most notably Office suite. I understand, but that can also be interpretted as if they prefer mail as they getting more experienced. I also don't really understand what is problem with emails. Smartphones have almost removed distinction between a so called an instant message and and email. Email has become just yet another messaging media. What I have suggested in several comments by now, is that it is maybe possible to tuck git workflow on existing mail workflow. Maybe some tasks could be automated I don't know. So will your university listen to the students and open a discord channel or was it snappchat they prefer? Sorry, hope you don't mind a joke.