Question: using public domain code?

Question: using public domain code?

[Qiantan Hong]

Can I use nontrivial but public domain code in GNU project?


Best,
Qiantan

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Arthur Miller]

Qiantan Hong <qhong@mit.edu> writes:

> Can I use nontrivial but public domain code in GNU project?
>
>
> Best,
> Qiantan

I have same question: can I use GPL3 code from SXEmacs in GNU Emacs? :D

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Qiantan Hong]

I guess GPL3 would need copyright assignment from original author 
(that’s why we all need to do the paperwork!).

But I’m unsure about public domain...

> On Sep 6, 2021, at 10:25 PM, Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> wrote:
> 
> Qiantan Hong <qhong@mit.edu> writes:
> 
>> Can I use nontrivial but public domain code in GNU project?
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> Qiantan
> 
> I have same question: can I use GPL3 code from SXEmacs in GNU Emacs? :D
> 

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Qiantan Hong <qhong@mit.edu>
> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 01:41:14 +0000
> 
> Can I use nontrivial but public domain code in GNU project?

Is this issue relevant to Emacs?  If not, please take it to
gnu-misc-discuss or some similar mailing list.

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Qiantan Hong <qhong@mit.edu>
> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 05:30:41 +0000
> Cc: Emacs Devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> I guess GPL3 would need copyright assignment from original author 
> (that’s why we all need to do the paperwork!).

Yes, we need copyright assignment for non-trivial code.  If the code
is small enough, we could accept it without an assignment, but AFAIU
we'd still need the author to tell explicitly he or she agrees to
submit the code to Emacs.

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Stefan Monnier]

> But I’m unsure about public domain...

In theory, public domain can be used, and I think we wpouldn't require
copyright papers to use it in Emacs.

*BUT* in practice, there is pretty much no ELisp code in the public
domain.  If the file says that it's in the public domain, it's usually
a misunderstanding on the part of the authors thinking they can opt to
put the file in the public domain, which is not the case.

You can assume they meant to use something like the CC0 license, instead.


        Stefan

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Qiantan Hong]

In such case (code says PD but actually CC0 like), does it
prevent usage in GNU project without copyright papers?

To my understanding the copyright papers are to anticipate
upgrading to new license in the future.
AFAIK CC0-like are compatible with GPL,
does that mean it doesn’t create trouble for license upgrading even
without copyright papers? 
(Because the CC0-like code doesn’t need to be relicensed,
we just need to relicense the other part of the codebase and
those CC0 like code will still stay compatible?)

> On Sep 7, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> 
>> But I’m unsure about public domain...
> 
> In theory, public domain can be used, and I think we wpouldn't require
> copyright papers to use it in Emacs.
> 
> *BUT* in practice, there is pretty much no ELisp code in the public
> domain.  If the file says that it's in the public domain, it's usually
> a misunderstanding on the part of the authors thinking they can opt to
> put the file in the public domain, which is not the case.
> 
> You can assume they meant to use something like the CC0 license, instead.
> 
> 
>        Stefan
> 
> 

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Arthur Miller]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> But I’m unsure about public domain...
>
> In theory, public domain can be used, and I think we wpouldn't require
> copyright papers to use it in Emacs.
>
> *BUT* in practice, there is pretty much no ELisp code in the public
> domain.  If the file says that it's in the public domain, it's usually
> a misunderstanding on the part of the authors thinking they can opt to
> put the file in the public domain, which is not the case.

It is a serious question: is any SXEmacs code (gpl3) out of scope to be included
in GNU Emacs? I am aware I can use it in my personal projects and publish etc,
but it would never be accepted in GNU Emacs? Unless the authors sign the fsf
copyrights?

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:28:10 +0200
> Cc: Qiantan Hong <qhong@mit.edu>, Emacs Devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> It is a serious question: is any SXEmacs code (gpl3) out of scope to be included
> in GNU Emacs?

I thought I gave you a serious answer...

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Arthur Miller]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
>> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:28:10 +0200
>> Cc: Qiantan Hong <qhong@mit.edu>, Emacs Devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>> 
>> It is a serious question: is any SXEmacs code (gpl3) out of scope to be included
>> in GNU Emacs?
>
> I thought I gave you a serious answer...

I thought you didn't answered that one, so I must have missed it

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca,  qhong@mit.edu,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:50:50 +0200
> 
> > I thought I gave you a serious answer...
> 
> I thought you didn't answered that one, so I must have missed it

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-09/msg00576.html

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Arthur Miller]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
>> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca,  qhong@mit.edu,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:50:50 +0200
>> 
>> > I thought I gave you a serious answer...
>> 
>> I thought you didn't answered that one, so I must have missed it
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-09/msg00576.html

Ah, that one, thx.

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > a misunderstanding on the part of the authors thinking they can opt to
  > put the file in the public domain, which is not the case.

In the US, they can do that.

Instead of disputing the issue here in a general way that won't be
right, the right thing is to consult assign@gnu.org about the specific
case and tell them the facts.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > It is a serious question: is any SXEmacs code (gpl3) out of scope to be included
  > in GNU Emacs? I am aware I can use it in my personal projects and publish etc,
  > but it would never be accepted in GNU Emacs? Unless the authors sign the fsf
  > copyrights?

It is not impossible, but the FSF would want to consider the decision
with care, based on what benefit the code would bring us.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > In such case (code says PD but actually CC0 like), does it
  > prevent usage in GNU project without copyright papers?

It depends on the details of the situation.  I can't give you a
general answer, but if you bring up a _specific real case_ we can look
for a solution.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Question: using public domain code?

[Arthur Miller]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > In such case (code says PD but actually CC0 like), does it
>   > prevent usage in GNU project without copyright papers?
>
> It depends on the details of the situation.  I can't give you a
> general answer, but if you bring up a _specific real case_ we can look
> for a solution.

I'll make some noise if/when I have something.