From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 04:20:10 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87ledwx7sh.fsf@yahoo.com> <877cpfybhf.fsf@yahoo.com> <873503y66i.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6oj4mle.fsf@localhost> <871qfn2og7.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27863"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Po Lu , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ihor Radchenko Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 29 13:07:32 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qawZH-00070B-5O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 13:07:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qawXR-0007xi-4S; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 07:05:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaoL3-0007bd-3M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:20:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-dbaeur03olkn2100.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.58.100] helo=EUR03-DBA-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaoL0-0001Mq-Th for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:20:16 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=h2SGTCH4+6hyFQyUP5WgbJyax6xHH/0Wb3gRTsOrYpSBxv6wO33rw/GsrvENPIRojnCQRhDz9id8uPbpHK2Hs69+InlTUjLsUue3GDSYKRj8BPV6iP84R+WKK4X5zYfXe3YdrsmQakRM06zQDX80ap9ZvCXqDS25Uhp1o+feoS/OO6ZWZzAr0oDTma/TzGCAmzPCaIePvw5Mg+2KhKuWkLmdqurcan176v0KpUoOHGs4eyBiFmIk96Qw9iHLWhxJf6t9nluVoe2QIEc4zHp1jEdWBrXPhCSaKxOBi9aosg98EYPKEz8Y3zYhxjzloIocsLmVvVEDs7DeaHWocjVCmw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=QWKloOnyRaxdXL34NzgJEW1BROnhhiJE2eOoy9nOXBc=; b=BIluDId1+axlnsboIffQ5reQgfkjVVEp/YudItYLEY3BibIokHezbB55D3gzyH11ISv8wFBq1fc11F445lxlDhDAJZyqTJ9ngh8gmaB6MldW6PS2u7nUXh8SZkweRc0wngYnYm4qcb4FghXYYNQP6X0ubfGCIN6HXNd/qnnpmGbo9pLHGeCARM9DvFPe9S7Sxl5bD8h1YVktDmiszEzHfFZSo9XyRX0l2+r5JoaN8gEZ9H3DpvGSrtX5MvbDSlPjhgExTUmL4rbG37OoXMfpXUIMeL/x4HX3f9s9Idm0id+J0qfHznE4dLzzP1vxYi7m9aohkWJUEnRCr2M8pCKZhA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=QWKloOnyRaxdXL34NzgJEW1BROnhhiJE2eOoy9nOXBc=; b=phlRul20szNfcRo7EVlJPO/vmsIx1NRdH+Lp9kHvhNEq6b5mKMEp3kmmWI9q74oTo7COAnR1zgPCsIGu0TJzcwlJGzdcxeP2OgAGP3nh4+PVNvm0j+o/qO2zWhaLSRoJcW8G/HGoUbft5vzul2i0WJ9PqaawEwD0tvD89LNsBKAD8ICsI7Eeg5oQbxe4qyWDvMFBHarWKA1PLQijdscIJvGEUIIximZy/bzVTA9kEsfM/yLwshdLN1fE3wH33812GQXbawq52DjcLMlBloc+dfQ9K5KWc3r9lfVSGDmoxYU75F/erRVNHNkrDWk/8KYBKLpAqjcjqqZYMf9G6M0AIg== Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) by DB4PR09MB5920.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:384::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6699.34; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 02:20:12 +0000 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::df56:b1b1:64b1:6122]) by AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::df56:b1b1:64b1:6122%7]) with mapi id 15.20.6699.035; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 02:20:12 +0000 In-Reply-To: <871qfn2og7.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:09:44 +0000") X-TMN: [7qRiKTlczFa2uSmHw/x4D6uwMXMT5ET0] X-ClientProxiedBy: OL1P279CA0030.NORP279.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:e10:13::17) To AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <82pm3637z9.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM9PR09MB4977:EE_|DB4PR09MB5920:EE_ X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 4eaf33fc-531a-4370-9ed7-08dba8367908 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?us-ascii?Q?zJTQ09Xz0I7D+T5JF0r2C+idu9bWP8zt0AzyEk18ntoKpuppCm4P49Q/QMQf?= =?us-ascii?Q?DnHBdtCBp+pGUvuyzLQonfYthudAr66aNIvlneZpzPgRHbZ9ha6cZOuwZ6LU?= =?us-ascii?Q?OJBrRh7XsxazGZLPObxPZ7AKbpcIJ/1KFv9EzTL0Ppp6w7TyOUMAFoaIUtmh?= =?us-ascii?Q?W23FU5aUHPQ5tFoGdLOp9khYk25L8tf6kuCB5ErUEnF/xD4l3vIKnAnUfGXb?= =?us-ascii?Q?bUEb2PnYBMsS22+VdQKs4tTYUBzfQ9sv1kNbb6aBbA3earmKXCMcWd6M3QZL?= =?us-ascii?Q?oQk33byC1YA46pj7ElX5KKslm0wCbHuyMNCUg7uGcLvK8IBmQiwuOYtGkCcy?= =?us-ascii?Q?LZ2FleXdngbwe1vYc4+24V7x4f+V+po2rgTPhluBhmn7s6eKCNs+8sg1Qpcc?= =?us-ascii?Q?5H1Pe8vzPDGB+D1346BoGeP36m+S6vAyIqreMwqop6Mqx9HSabbWd0rj22L1?= =?us-ascii?Q?9Wg5AVZPIsE5WOGs+bnO0V4pxBxR85ovpbLIa10uZTjjaTibP9CBxQqbugoK?= =?us-ascii?Q?9bzH720FOkRHj+Bj2YHSF+SpzMijTpJJOO8HlPeqPD73ztUpaYvDR62uLDeJ?= =?us-ascii?Q?ISgJt6T/7nqNNAqwmejwqSceY2LxAqTN5K7G7fO2n00hY0RF47arfC9sj1L6?= =?us-ascii?Q?g8 X-OriginatorOrg: sct-15-20-4755-11-msonline-outlook-64da6.templateTenant X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4eaf33fc-531a-4370-9ed7-08dba8367908 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2023 02:20:11.9975 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB4PR09MB5920 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.92.58.100; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR03-DBA-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 07:05:27 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309487 Archived-At: Ihor Radchenko writes: > Arthur Miller writes: > >> However, my thesis was not that it is impossible to do in Emacs, but >> that there is a lisp machine that already has figured out that work. > > Unless that lisp machine supports all the Elisp concepts, it will not be > useful. So, from my point of view, what you suggest is: instead of > adding multi-threading to Elisp, add all the missing Elisp parts to > other lisp machine. I suspect that adding Elisp-unique parts in a way Pretty much so yes. > I suspect that adding Elisp-unique parts in a way > that all the existing Elisp code continue working is harder compared to > modifying Elisp machine. No, I don't think so. Honestly. Or, as always, it depends :). Mostly on hat is considered as hard parts. Adding missing stuff to CL is most volymous dull labour but conceptually not very hard. There are some nasty spots like implementing elisp reader for character handling. It was quite annoying since character handlign is mostly just a wrapper over C and quite inconsistent in Emacs, so it was lots of cases to cover and lots of testing, but logically it was not a problem that needs some special thinkering to solve it or so, if I am expressing myself clearly here > Feel free to prove me wrong.