From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gitlab Migration Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 03:39:56 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87h7fcnmq0.fsf@posteo.net> <87o89kw0hl.fsf@gnus.org> <0c369b25-aedd-1fdf-4813-503f27e42c7c@yandex.ru> <874kbbznwv.fsf@gmail.com> <8735qvwcqt.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8092"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Daniel Fleischer , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tim Cross Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 28 03:46:12 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mJnQ9-0001tA-UW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 03:46:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34576 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJnQ8-0007MX-Np for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:46:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58080) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJnPH-0006Ab-PO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:45:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-am7eur06olkn20817.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([2a01:111:f400:fe10::817]:19041 helo=EUR06-AM7-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJnPC-0000CO-4e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:45:15 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=UV0Nle//cDSIfnEq3d5PWjbNBXGalFwg6mK4OV6tz8BxyWur/MPSjvVjAdyLyGJnr0HyxacDWdKRctfgcjeVtJkc1nVjK9ELepNml0yQNDAfLMT4ZYROEnK6SQ2uRG94Idw/RADGe3fCTQaXkL+ulqcbtt2+sf8BVpJSHRBHZ6nLRq/ApMT+pD0bnWj6+J2L6BZuMSpvfV5stR3GDnqoMUhVk39A7oMRRyMByNRKcEiN+2OlciKFqja+8cCM41il76IZvL8pNLuQUohOaK6rqsvImiTPbvhgkyMc/X2m+QCWoBAYNzx72dlD9TZ5TlYvl+MdC+YB8pso/WREyNXl9A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=hLPk3L9tf9aeIn3Y0Gp+xy90NFOO0njo+NzDBT0LWRo=; b=NHMYukabj2dvEToMMtr3NcDgMZDTEYB2VTr9M4FO6XRMJJUckY3gGNN6cyPvi88TqoIbYDzAPybn3okTnMApeyNd6k6y5HDwnh6AXRXLhCm3WkWHaY1o5wRwq533zTWZwjSzgRAhlpz6fjk6ekKmriarMjIq5bkPltum9ooxQrJJjjeGX4SrjTUxU/D1xFYLBX8pEJ1zWIHSSF/OybGtP5EP/1U/Q/cph6ZgYXxotQpHJD96H9wCuvVouOGNjPBfEgKrpUOKwQIUJok/7P7MiRlAw+/j84WeNCfiQngc+sgFKG+ncObrzbTsDE/PHmE1wnfNKq3j2ikJOQSJteMOtQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=hLPk3L9tf9aeIn3Y0Gp+xy90NFOO0njo+NzDBT0LWRo=; b=mXHFwToJk+TEIAvaeW5WszbKcMmCKt/l4G3tlvs3AO0X5qeKBkBzaczdzdTeQBQyIZSrh8lKxu/bn7VsM6dPXQZGamBnxIY97KI/2pIVYWS5RyXLSvUAIsovtIwdIuMrRe+dtgFDSOqVcCKQP1xQZQleEnBQX0LCIIdZQL7cI6zj7z8dYkbGuDbJY//bBi47Vt2XozoCmrQAJcQ6pCThGX8kFl+NM5MPhlrivz1zfOweT9r+79JC4UQ9wD1QHMgte5HuHBrpiSBF96CDEdKY40BkQXecCbEEboqGSRIXrS4M6/JHeFdqiAD2uvME+9F3vYc5GVu/Z+0d770ng+0kIw== Original-Received: from AM7EUR06FT036.eop-eur06.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc36::46) by AM7EUR06HT010.eop-eur06.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc36::349) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4457.17; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:39:57 +0000 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc36::4e) by AM7EUR06FT036.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc36::365) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4457.17 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:39:57 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:F4F9A109DADD9CD6AA34B4DD72914D81BCF2EA850ED780977A9A771A5FDCF446; UpperCasedChecksum:C397C9FC546085A7650998AB590F2E3641EBC110A951A8BF2B8B75FB6A77BEE5; SizeAsReceived:7584; Count:46 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::35f2:ac79:ee50:c46c]) by AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::35f2:ac79:ee50:c46c%8]) with mapi id 15.20.4457.023; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:39:57 +0000 In-Reply-To: <8735qvwcqt.fsf@gmail.com> (Tim Cross's message of "Fri, 27 Aug 2021 17:34:26 +1000") X-TMN: [VZJ0qDaLtK61OTDfG4cckk0Wc1DKQ+nC] X-ClientProxiedBy: AM6PR10CA0078.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:8c::19) To AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87a6l21h5f.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Original-Received: from pascal.homepc (81.232.177.30) by AM6PR10CA0078.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:8c::19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4457.20 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:39:56 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 46 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: e01c5839-9500-4da5-0d58-08d969c4bdb0 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM7EUR06HT010: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: VwbGnyYIm+kmY0kRHq6sFxA89iqmlLMNx/8GEzuB9XkQFC3WMCm91MZp2kdjkrXQcegiR89Ms7qUsJ0qYql6E5COBYttDE578eT8TTKv0TqA/5D2BFbrwJErL0o/GU55GL/ago0YvIIwFtJIRon75q4cnAXlfAnfRSpOeTOWswaPjdWM0xaniraPB7CIi7wWPFnj9VFyuB1GT7ee2kuYgHpFyjvEuZn737u3N1Z9txQ9C0yydUcy4m5HFVzoUTbDGB8w2WScadlPTsLXpuXcTPsJ/M82V0RLqtLEA0p98vVrpOjehujngx5Uz3/kIGvTopOEEv0S39jmv5PGB6ZQRR5dXa5rPhuKJmqRKzkBwhso8wBhZGps376m5UBMUsmSAnd8jEOZBqLeZ3DDIHRTtGdyxoXqPTjatyqomkj2KyZnu5QwGFXyE4abKd/d3Twj X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: kP8hrdqHwdb7vOSOeMEkzdpG2nKV5uVtr4miA463NgXp+uACo7DtBXg0T2xu2ZGNQja7hAPl4DF6dCe+r+igE2yhpyhStveqoo60r86CWr/rng4GH4xMtSxCb8clNmoAEJpm6qsYQokHvlKnTTY7hg== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e01c5839-9500-4da5-0d58-08d969c4bdb0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2021 01:39:57.1054 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7EUR06FT036.eop-eur06.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7EUR06HT010 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:111:f400:fe10::817; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR06-AM7-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: 2 X-Spam_score: 0.2 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273202 Archived-At: Tim Cross writes: > Daniel Fleischer writes: > >> Tim Cross [2021-08-27 Fri 11:01] *wrote*: >> >>> I'm not sure this is true. I think virtually all developers are forced >>> to suffer email, but a gorwing number don't use it. Often, all the >>> discussions, notifications, comments etc are actually consumed via a >>> mobile 'app'. For these users, logging into their inbox is frustrating >>> and inconvenient because their inbox is full of pointless and old >>> messages/notifications/alerts they have already seen/received via other >>> channels. For these users, the primary reason they have an email address >>> is to have something to put into the 'login' box for web services they >>> use. Telling these users to use email to submit a patch is very similar >>> to me being told when I started using email that I had to send in a hard >>> copy via snail mail. >> >> It's a very intersting point about what email represent to different >> people that arising from this discussion. I'm half your age and use >> email for 2 reasons: >> >> 1. It's an identify for today's web. As such, it's becoming the main >> tool for tracking (especially as cookies phase out), so I use >> multiple boxes and regard them is disposable and spam-infected. >> >> 2. Receiving official documents from institutions. >> >> I don't talk to family, friends or coworkers via mail. Personally, I >> think it's old, not secure or private by default, very inconsistent >> (HTML rendering is arbitrary vs. text, multiple MUA) and just can't >> imagine using it as a software engineering tool. >> > > Yep, that mirrors what I'm seeing as well. Many younger users really use > it primarily to provide a unique identifier (login) and for when they > have to deal with institutions that don't provide other alternatives. > > The other interesting trend I'm seeing is with many companies now > working to minimise email as part of their internal/external workflows. > Many companies are finding it a huge resource sink, cause of unnecessary > stress/pressure on staff, source of significant security concerns and a > real problem for records management. > > From the Emacs project perspective, providing alternative web based > workflows similar to what github/gitlab/sourceHut provide would be > beneficial. The challenge seems to be in finding software which meets > FSF requirements. In particular, a solution which is mature enough and > is not based on non-free Javascript libraries. I wouldn't agree with you that young people don't know how to use email. That is something you are deriving yourself. Sure Instagram, Facebook, Dicord, Twitter, Slack etc might be very popular as a mean of communication, but saying that young people don't know how to use email is stretching it too far.