From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 14:40:57 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87mu1xrjqw.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <48ed4897-356c-4669-a330-1fdb5d65402b@default> <83lfhhijbl.fsf@gnu.org> <871rj9uz12.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <1d991f36-1cc7-d801-6cfb-bfd5541efc77@yandex.ru> <515af795-9cb7-b92f-340c-d3a80645684e@yandex.ru> <20200911132300.6xhbdonq2yeamlee@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38191"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Gregory Heytings , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 12 14:41:47 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kH4qh-0009rI-MW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR06-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/12 08:41:01 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255329 Archived-At: Ergus writes: > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 03:50:24PM +0300, Dmitry Gutov wrote: >>On 11.09.2020 14:00, Arthur Miller wrote: >>>Dmitry Gutov writes: >>> >>>>On 11.09.2020 00:21, Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions= . wrote: >>>>>I'm not a maintainer, but FWIW my opinion is that what will most likel= y happen >>>>>is that they will never agree to do this.=C3=AF=C2=BF=C2=BD Menus are = not "modern". >>>> >>>>That's certainly the current trend in Emacs customizations, but it's no= t a >>>>universal rule. >>>> >>>>VS Code has a traditional menu. Atom has a menu. Visual Studio and Inte= lliJ IDEA >>>>of course have them too. >>>When I used to make money by programming VBA with MS Office and C++ with >>>VStudio I used to turn off all toolbars and menus I could. Back then >>>computer screens where much smaller then today, and even today I still >>>fight for vertical screen estate on my computer. >> >> I do too. But menus should be helpful for newcomers (and when they are n= ot, we >> should improve them). So having "starter kits" disable the menus right a= way >> seems counter-productive. >> >> BTW, the Unity DE and Sublime Text editor included an alternative UI for >> menus, where you hit a key (Alt, in the case of Unity) and then fuzzy ma= tch on >> command description. >> > Just a question as I don't use sublime anymore. Do you mean something > like "autohiding" the toolbar or part of it? > >>>For that reason, on my home computer I run a WM without decorations, Ema= cs >>>without any gui elements more then main gui window, Firefox & Gimp with >>>menus and gui hidden etc. I have never used IntellliJ software, but I >>>guess they will give you option to maximize the working area by >>>disabling the gui items too. >>> >>>Anyway, I don't think GUI should be disabled by default; that should be = left to >>>the user. I am really curious which distro you run :-)? >> >> I use Ubuntu with GNOME and the Unite extension which emulates Unity to = the >> best extent possible. That means removing application title bars when th= e app >> is maximized, moving their contents (such as menus) to the top panel whe= n >> possible. >> >>So it's the kind of changes as you did, but to a smaller extent. >> > The toolbar is less useful if the right click offers the expected > options in a panel (copy, paste, cut, select all, upcase, highlight all > like this, show error at point). > > That's why many applications have removed or hided the toolbar; because > a right click is usually faster than moving the mouse to the top of the > screen. (they also use the key to show the right click panel from > keyboard but we use it for execute-extended-command) I also agree, some few years ago before I switched to Helm on "full-time basis" I used context menus a lot. I had menu-bar and tool-bar turned off and used mouse to switch buffers and so on. Nowadays it is all Helm for me since it is even faster to fuzzy complete with a shortcut key than to move hand to the mouse for the context menu. There is a commercial package called Maya. They have a pop-up window/menu widget they call "hot box". In that pop-up they have all, or as few as chosen by the user, menus collected in a transparent window they pop-up under the mouse after the spacebar is hold for a while (I think it was half a second). As info, the application itself could be called "emacs for 3d modellers"; it is completely scriptable/extensible (in-house dialect of TCL), all gui elements can be turned off/on etc. You can see a demo in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Do2FB6UIK1rc (sorry for the YT and non-free JS but it is what it is). Maybe such or similar widget could be good to have in Emacs? As a compromise between a minimal GUI, discoverability and avialability of menus even when gui elements are disabled? A context menu would still be faster though.