From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Sat, 02 May 2020 21:36:41 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4XvMn7QQudwuCq-3cSOnqK_gBoHnmblv2--PKi2oupbCsZwaxxrzA2Chwb6LEzzg1TYjAJNboC8lwPgw8VA5IhYUBs-Jly9HfTqPtsgZUHg=@protonmail.com> <707cb938-3722-46eb-a2ef-0211259680e9@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="15272"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: ndame , Richard Stallman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 02 21:37:27 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jUxx1-0003sL-E7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 21:37:27 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45616 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUxx0-0008NN-Gz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 15:37:26 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44900) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUxwO-0007RE-8a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 15:36:48 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUxwM-0000yY-9x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 15:36:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oln040092074039.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.74.39]:4166 helo=EUR04-DB3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUxwL-0000wq-KQ; Sat, 02 May 2020 15:36:45 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=K2FbPnmTxkRTKKwD+JqIr7p/8miRtIQ364bJjkSyGanzPebM6M6Nj3K2mFWMsVNWh28hgufHVaD7vWh5IGuP1DZt7XWLW5cXsVIEXSk8WAWpklQA/3Tc67xz5/xiDEPTF4HKFcU5B+0qsTu5PI2NmNkLfcu1qiWwt7OZLZ+hgSPG0CbRiT84jiZAuZl4oSjwYMjjdHm6MOnQOpDdN18BJW3z9mNzDMJJZtf21haO89vDL0Tuz8HhmJdvMnEyEi6zdM2WTXlTt6DmVDW+kqY8oFwSTWypuf6aF/5PoxgFXnANiDROg0QRExNQrdL84AqLS+8ILJNslDCcVZXLb0eekA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=9KvRQt2oZOYoTXJgZKpkPAJvwvhWGel5+w6YCmONx/c=; b=VcxCx4OJpbyAN6U/BuLmNMARx9iAy+QHpVD2FA7pEXrYNhTYWQYjBN1va/ag3UczoUYmEt/KR9y/0wwD2IIBvNShpTzLrwJKHh3wEfLJk2n6skaJRJP2subRDrAlCqj3EhpbXN9b0AUEAL3EH6dDNWdtYHh4srOlAh0US5srG+fgQpnXoTszqOFdNNvymZ5yEF6mhujXPsoOlRJzb6/55UcnHCd+1+ueFCCig2bw/ssg6MR40OvD/W5to0HJd+YnHna16kP6TjwHT3djDRQejQZScweW6Xti75Pz6qcBR27FJRiPHlNgM2SIMXB0LdoqqJzIkwztJZENrVfWcp0fxw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=live.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=live.com; dkim=pass header.d=live.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=9KvRQt2oZOYoTXJgZKpkPAJvwvhWGel5+w6YCmONx/c=; b=OJA38XP4swImGQMZ6eMLq2LSRVoBGvF8v92NEaTW8z2ou/lYU4C7QtxwF2U6/IKNx/4tEYbn5bd4pN0W9byxvoQ0renTjWxFYVwkQG1Hdmr1Z1q+fUh6VNzqXdLEBlwNFgYtMhC8YBrqccx3K9iJvktFcgmhI004+JbZFmIBMnhxPNKghA/iJOxDOASj7jVgO/uHCFyDEWsZogp6rbjmlcivd7bshj6JScPiCzNLRga0ZmrZeRbjmdPTRWq8tfypy5QVSTgnifRZDlkfVvzEilNM81okUrbZV1U2SkqpsXeIxqkS8iUFDLjSbdEysy9hvrdeOvMyXyrLbZDt3or7AA== Original-Received: from DB3EUR04FT031.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0c::4f) by DB3EUR04HT037.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0c::89) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2958.19; Sat, 2 May 2020 19:36:43 +0000 Original-Received: from AM0PR06MB6420.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0c::46) by DB3EUR04FT031.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0c::239) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2958.19 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 2 May 2020 19:36:42 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:C7E725DAA91F59CCD4F31EC7F8462C079076C2DF624D567098E3FE5F01668DCB; UpperCasedChecksum:024953E80ECE60C681B2971A38250FB68AFA0263D4CD126FB812294C4BEA4007; SizeAsReceived:8007; Count:48 Original-Received: from AM0PR06MB6420.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::849f:536a:6aab:16]) by AM0PR06MB6420.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::849f:536a:6aab:16%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2958.027; Sat, 2 May 2020 19:36:42 +0000 In-Reply-To: <707cb938-3722-46eb-a2ef-0211259680e9@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 2 May 2020 12:04:29 -0700 (PDT)") X-ClientProxiedBy: AM6P192CA0050.EURP192.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:82::27) To AM0PR06MB6420.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:1a2::19) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <874ksyf7sm.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Original-Received: from pascal.homepc (90.230.29.56) by AM6P192CA0050.EURP192.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:82::27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2958.20 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 2 May 2020 19:36:42 +0000 X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <874ksyf7sm.fsf@live.com> X-TMN: [AnAWkMHLJ5DHpRH5z8INRjJL9UGkfakk] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 48 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 7fb72356-6412-4181-ff9a-08d7eed0244c X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB3EUR04HT037: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: GDal56/G3HfL+zjXz191hQnfKcKrdXs3uI6QvJRlVNAzrz3dlhAlOpm/GUZmuNNN/3gxEtWaoPa4PqyvGK2RuUHyzHsgi1k7pjbrmkQCjqlrc0f8Vtg87gsJWBGdMHUBtqYLGh2W8TBihKlGU0eIppsiGW1d3x3L+Qb4qXhTPswk1Z+7++W/DPrDUhIPUe9kji75emWts5MJbL6AnGhVSA== X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:0; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:AM0PR06MB6420.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:; DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: wR8Oik8BgQe6xC9lEY5ExULeVKLHNeMWyE/1kc4u0o6NjJZGyizFq1lu/nSru0L45cbJfy4L9W3phcyN/6cGc13Ivraei7jmCZaixtwPd3q7SWTxcFL+ZIoPWCiae1HZIFjcpydUPLUh3sn4ILZdHw== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7fb72356-6412-4181-ff9a-08d7eed0244c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2020 19:36:42.8825 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB3EUR04HT037 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.92.74.39; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR04-DB3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/02 15:36:43 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 40.92.74.39 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248553 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: > FWIW, I really do NOT think that anyone who's > been involved with Emacs development has little > care for newbies or for making Emacs flexible and > easy to use. I do NOT think something like that either Drew, nor did I state that, just to be clear. Emacs is a prime example of flexibility, sure! I wrote, Emacs is super-adaptable. Ease of use can be debatable, what is easy for you and me does not necessary mean easy for somebody else. > The opposite is the case - everyone I've ever see > take an interest in Emacs cares very much about > usability, discoverability, etc. I didn't say Eamcs devs don't care about it either, I am sorry if I sound to you like that. Usability, discoverability and other user friendliness have many faces. What I tried to say, is that that Emacs might have used some kind of a facelift to reflect more of a time we live in. Yes, sure, there are examples were people have not scratched under the surface of Emacs, and lots of people use it with out-of-the-box settings. But it wasn't point that it is not possible, or that there are no users who does not do something with Emacs. The point is that many users are not finding Emacs that useful, and are probably not even trying it or switching after very short period to something else because of Emacs not conforming to some basic expectations they happened to have. Sure, one can never please everyone, that is just how life is. No matter how one make something or how good one try, there will always be someone who will want it differently, but nowdays, there are some basics that most software seems to follow, and some people seems to be lost of those are not met.