From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 02:29:57 +0200 Message-ID: References: <20180913174640.GB4019@ACM> <8736udkuit.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180914104833.GA4103@ACM> <83k1nojgia.fsf@gnu.org> <7bed1f76-5bae-44cb-9b22-206b513043be@default> <83d0tfkj77.fsf@gnu.org> <1c393214-c186-4760-9a37-e0450c946446@default> <83zhwji4hx.fsf@gnu.org> <20180915102016.GA15443@ACM> <20180915194419.bty3fzs5tnjez3pq@Ergus> <83ftyail7n.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1537057932 11748 195.159.176.226 (16 Sep 2018 00:32:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 00:32:12 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 16 02:32:08 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g1Kyt-0002x8-QJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 02:32:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57213 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1L0z-0004qy-J9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 20:34:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45133) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1L0q-0004qn-1b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 20:34:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1L0m-0008Hk-O2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 20:34:07 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic307-35.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([87.248.110.60]:38208) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1L0m-0008FP-G6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 20:34:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1537058043; bh=8Niuv2Qwjd417rgBVC1ylWt8sNkLxM0+ZzE2+mxomF8=; h=Date:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:From:From:Subject; b=g/TJuwuoDdpzykR/DOKz5CmmE7FpUTDD8kWNGxPEPCzsSkI3cnsjFomcNdNqsFT6ychwh6cASQVaioZVlG5dxzhg7cSwMn7qEqSK5VgV2YIWYAcU0KLkNqW843L87336FmyOsKOXYXksjkagGbs/2G//1m8mlIjbRUKXVdlL6l3t8lzbIwYZh4/BXZCCIQ5uBAPE12JbKFLbFmdlh3mS/6N7YR79eFQpAMLx44mjB2CV75Dob27ezNZTU+1pbfRhGLbcObytzkRt6zQnO57JBXXxjja1w6HFGmN7iSyal3dTcVhzV1n4qR57z2zBVvWKfhkMM1ZhV4zqmk1A+/alLQ== X-YMail-OSG: qsFPnUgVM1kMj.kBH2u_4XH1HFlznNFGqxtQvGHMnVloD8BbfQpZjmBjjzP90Mf ZBFXp3pREajjbcdU.SREflqnMkgxGtjVcrFBgNHVubzHhqJgFCZWBoDe8exUwRDOazQDjFmEYPwO YKl_KHz3vpHdksDWbygrOkCcpr_gj1dK0SZKr92cQz.a55EIKa_CWy3Io_90ZDwRNJGRyLYnna8D gWQSvNO_b4vjK4N9zvfT3g3pujFqGoqNs89_0a.ZF07g_YDhDq7XvO7iTXPuzZuxApk.kJxz6MkB dkX5xMzRvFoDSnHwmAGu7Z_jqwicuEQ0WfoCUm7dKnXkTfd6p9x8l4.1xe0XPsNl.JthdPIT0aa2 do4jQqJ13le4B1Irbj3sdpP1v83KDzI9a9p5rwrE.ygWRuGOmx6_5PwjtE5xgkZUv3JBC8pKEd99 eK7o62ri.rF9nl2xaWCXIU_KoKt_KUqmZGeJYi.MAAfH53XtaSn8lEOjdWP34VMCHeUe7Xg3VXJk G4YIyVLSyCXwvG3Kdg_IuRnXJ.Yo2OvQU54AcSEIv1DlHjbfk.O309rtiuGN8KuomPBeFASMag5T _EDZFf.QP01Rt3ujtxS3kdbFdaDL1FzYMyzJGiXVjBML.QGl8GS.q.wbJBjzlH79cUsxwq.lhm0Y lw7fB8qOvWV1P02s.HbwGqlxtoIETrHcANOk7qsA.ySObRX_HsivJWKELaoodjw.W01Rx79STep7 sz7gOGk8TgQd9.1mZOLRgbqtS7CxBRMg1g7LRtbkuxkKQTG6gCJqtHY47lGj9zTHio_AoGe8ogPC arnAYVMiX6TwMs0_azaQ3QnyJsRSMUg0thcZMTCZ9m Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 00:34:03 +0000 Original-Received: from 85.62.123.194 (EHLO android-9f9a19fd151d0f2d.home) ([85.62.123.194]) by smtp406.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 3953240d3a1ba0528d5df06afd5ce099; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 00:30:02 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <83ftyail7n.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 87.248.110.60 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229833 Archived-At: On 15 September 2018 22:01:32 CEST, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 21:44:19 +0200 >> From: Ergus >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams , >> yurivkhan@gmail=2Ecom, hw@adminart=2Enet, joostkremers@fastmail=2Efm, >> npostavs@gmail=2Ecom, emacs-devel@gnu=2Eorg, phillip=2Elord@russet=2Eo= rg=2Euk >>=20 >> The mark-point approach is not a fundamental emacs thing, it is just >a >> design choice enforced for technical limitations 40 years ago (like >the >> vi modes, the meta-hyper-syntax and so on) This means that (citing >Bill >> Joy about vi) it was created for a world that doesn't exist anymore=2E >So >> it can (and should) be updated/upgraded as many other things in emacs >> and any long living project=2E > >I don't agree with you, and in any case it's pointless to try to argue >that using mark and point for navigation in Emacs should go away=2E You >will never get this past long-time Emacs users=2E We must look for >other ways=2E Hi=2E I never told that it should go away now, or ever=2E But as many othe= r design choices they could be a solution in a time=2E But if it needs ch= anges or a reimplementation (or go away in the future) in favor of somethin= g better or new needs, then we shouldn't keep it as is only because a reduc= ed number of people don't want to adapt to the new behaviours=2E It should be clear about what is fundamental in emacs behaviour and whats = just something that has survived=2E=20