From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Wojciech Meyer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between ibuffer and dired Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 19:33:32 +0100 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278009233 10176 80.91.229.12 (1 Jul 2010 18:33:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 18:33:53 +0000 (UTC) To: Drew Adams , Lennart Borgman , Deniz Dogan , joakim@verona.se, Emacs-Devel devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 01 20:33:51 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OUOa4-0003fA-Vh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 20:33:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43575 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OUOa4-0001G6-FQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:33:48 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=46078 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OUOZv-0001D2-AG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:33:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OUOZq-0005y1-CZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:33:39 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-fx0-f41.google.com ([209.85.161.41]:33946) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OUOZq-0005xq-8H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:33:34 -0400 Original-Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17so1824020fxm.0 for ; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 11:33:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=wnBC6D4ScU5CQ2xSlnXQEoMx+FzvmqPa87e/PsmsfJY=; b=hMXeqT7jzCVLMTKT6tK1U9drZl1eCBjsZf5MQpkuJXd0LoLZrCjApYdkiKUj/F4NFq jxgHpl+UEP6z9B2Gl5N2+x1m+pUiAjkj5VY1PuF/RVX5cQb4e65sU5ytYKRkR/N32VEv mFBV8q6dXPrjrnMnAvmtTd2hR0OWdGISqUcbc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=GIFTJXe68kfRAGdS4OIgeJTjDU8ry+zmGZGo/r2jbLWhaTfwhNiBxCRFNYyo+vhODF C9p7MbRXt8KE23tscA9fYRxkYF3sM/cewGy+Q1VTqjQGStlScE0TaQp1yGE85RL5XNgC a0kMZeDv5JMeJrKBNUKVDqnez6o9GkGZceQTI= Original-Received: by 10.103.80.8 with SMTP id h8mr4811046mul.90.1278009212142; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 11:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.103.228.15 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jul 2010 11:33:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:126648 Archived-At: Hi, Important topic. it would be on my wish list too. (mobile so excuse formatting). Wojciech On 7/1/10, Drew Adams wrote: >> > I would like that very much. I'm just afraid that both modes are so >> > old that people have gotten very used to the keymaps by now and will >> > be very reluctant to relearn them if we change them now. >> >> Just prepare to make it an option if old users complain. I would guess >> that very many are annoyed by the difference today. > > If you really must do this kind of thing, please keep it to a minimum. And > please propose and discuss each key change on its own merits. > > And remember that Dired is _much_ older - Ibuffer is only a few years old > (~2007, IIUC). Attempts to move toward consistency here should, other > things > being equal, move toward the Dired bindings, not those of Ibuffer. > > To the extent that consistency here is important, Ibuffer should have dealt > with > it at the time it was created. And maybe it did: Perhaps the designers of > Ibuffer had good reasons for any inconsistencies they introduced between > Ibuffer > and Dired. (That does not necessarily mean they were right.) To the extent > that any such inconsistencies were simply oversights, they can be considered > Ibuffer bugs. > > Keep in mind too that it is not simply the habits of users that will be > affected. 3rd-party libraries are likely to have adopted the bindings of > one or > the other of these libraries, for consistency with it (and hence with user > habits). > > For example, Bookmark+ is consistent with Dired's bindings (e.g. wrt marking > and > removing marks and flags). Dired has been present since Day One; it has > many, > many users; and it has likely influenced a good deal of non-core code by > now. > Do not gratuitously change its bindings. > > Finally, remember that there can be good reasons for inconsistency between > different parts of a system. In particular, it can be the case that > consistency > (or optimization or convenience or some other quality) _within_ a part calls > for > inconsistency _between_ parts. > > For example, the key bindings within Ibuffer need to work together and fit > the > logic and use of Ibuffer features, and that consideration could argue in > favor > of differences with Dired. (Just hypothetical - I know little about Ibuffer > itself.) > > In sum: > > * Treat proposed changes on a case-by-case basis, discussing them. > * Respect Dired. Respect time. Respect user numbers. > * Consider consistency wrt its scope. And remember that it is not the only > important quality. > > > > -- Sent from my mobile device