From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stephen Eilert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:58:10 -0300 Message-ID: References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87lj9ayp2f.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201007221414.39227.tassilo@member.fsf.org> <876307s8dm.fsf@kanis.fr> <878w539u7m.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279841126 24969 80.91.229.12 (22 Jul 2010 23:25:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 23:25:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: David Kastrup , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Wojciech Meyer Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 23 01:25:25 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oc58l-0000oz-TH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:25:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52825 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oc4j2-0001cl-6b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:58:48 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=42696 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oc3xE-00030V-BX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:09:25 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oc3mP-0002hH-W3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:58:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iw0-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:52560) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oc3mP-0002h6-Sz; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:58:13 -0400 Original-Received: by iwn2 with SMTP id 2so10405715iwn.0 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:58:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Tqrjw/0JZiJ4Yj83BC9cgrg1xz+xlxoo5Xm1U1/OwpA=; b=a8yr70R1kyPeWis0bAuy3HLwU/sAiH55NOTtSNfDMW/1mNxqRecgLrB+PfouziQW6u iIUguzfUFlpMijdfgBQDfn+6t5J8djTd5NvKG8tM2kwoNeVJheLJwxd8/tQq8ZvHWvRH iPUagdyOQv8rxmXEVEM0s00qXTEiH+gMfWb7E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=iQGsS0LKvW6/oDiavl861a07gXfHQPPhGtcN+Phqs6AB9L8iyvaILQVqlFC04tyeja /DYRAHA5eK80urXVHvo9Bui0XntQCUocGxdkhQ0HTFIRGx95xNvWHW1n7WkBYuuwnQsP u0wmwoWawbryGsjF/R/Z59OaWyIQ1onGSn2cc= Original-Received: by 10.231.203.15 with SMTP id fg15mr2276572ibb.187.1279835890920; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.149.73 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:58:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127666 Archived-At: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Wojciech Meyer wrote: > Yes. Cua mode is not a solution. The solution would be a minor mode > that preserves CUA keys but disables *completely* emacs ones. The mode > should be easy to toggle and there need to be evident feedback when it > is on, a screen nagging about advanced features avaiable when you > switch the mode on. One will have chance to learn new bindigs > gradually. Wojciech I'd argue the other way. CUA is not the problem. There are a few things worth noticing: 1-Emacs discoverability It is quite good, once you know how and what to look for. describe-key, describe-mode, describe-function and apropos are invaluable. Only beginners won't know how to do such things unless explicitely told 2- Learning curve Pointless. I've been using it for years and I'm still learning. It would be best to ask: 'what is the minimum skillset to be moderately productive in everyday text editing?' I can't really answer that, yet. But I suspect you need very few commands for that. 3- Appearance Greatly improved by default on gnome ever since XFT was included. An ugly editor will put off many people. People tend to equate shiny = good, even technically informed ones. That's unfortunate, but unavoidable. I'd say Emacs is doing fine. Color-theme should be included by default and easily accessible IMHO. The only odd thing is really the modeline but, while it can be intimidating, it is also intriguing. 4- Defaults Here's where CUA comes in. Users expect the usual copy and paste behavior (including the ability to copy and paste among application) and *will* get completely confused by Emacs' kill-ring. The kill-ring is nice, but it is not straightforward to explain without visual feedback. Ditto for undo: I myself was confused by it for quite a while. My toolbars and menubars are turned off, but I'd say that they need some cleaning up. After all, menus are where most users will 'hunt' for features. --Stephen Sent from my Emacs