From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:18:40 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87lj9ayp2f.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201007221414.39227.tassilo@member.fsf.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279801920 11200 80.91.229.12 (22 Jul 2010 12:32:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:32:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Ivan Kanis , Chong Yidong , Miles Bader , Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tassilo Horn Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 22 14:31:56 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ObuwN-00006R-KA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:31:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50796 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ObuwM-0006e4-Qj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:31:54 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=56856 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Obuvb-0005se-3D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:31:08 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Obukm-0008TX-Lp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:20:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:63067) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Obujs-0008H7-Uy; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:19:00 -0400 Original-Received: by qwk4 with SMTP id 4so3203169qwk.0 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:19:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=BiF7xr5eVz2u1GK5ICFjpbWQqoygQFmClEDm6zM95A8=; b=nVcnU4NTZdRFLf/qfyBhONRddoRRG1oZX51dQwYV/Rv/inV6KoPtq+9mjaQ23QbWZN PW2+/7b4ux87OQz3o9aE5dRi1jf2fratIshaUTs0Rn9Msw6Wp1TlChIhXxAPdvkk23fD kZ91QFX5i42sSaW01lhBfN5dBk11yBUaDhvAM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AJCzdKhJ1UUNIf638S7+9nciv5eH6bgilW+yXrZHE1cfVd9aM0XWhE1mqC5xd9eXmj HQpf4qKjYDbvkRfq3zm8o98wERA8Mxy/gWzqE3XWo76Lkn+1Cjic8lnMHJoS+c+ETyLo 3ErG/KT29uKmj/7zkFLJRf2Mpwe3zenAMOxm4= Original-Received: by 10.224.60.211 with SMTP id q19mr1258303qah.85.1279801140220; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.229.5.72 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:18:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201007221414.39227.tassilo@member.fsf.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127630 Archived-At: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Tassilo Horn wrot= e: > On Thursday 22 July 2010 13:36:42 Lennart Borgman wrote: > >> > No, having CUA mode on by default is off the table. >> > >> > This proposal has been discussed before, and there are many problems >> > with it. =C2=A0For instance, by default, C-c LETTER is reserved for us= er >> > customizations; CUA prevents such key bindings when the region is >> > active. >> >> Is not this a reason for making CUA mode default? As long as it is not >> the default it will be a second class citizen and obstacles like this >> will remains. And those makes it quite a bit harder for new users. > > So you mean making CUA the default would force us to change the binding > reserved for users. =C2=A0I guess user's would be very happy to revamp th= eir > key bindings. > > And we would need to define new guidelines for modes. =C2=A0These > recommendations are also in conflict with CUA: > > ,----[ (info "(elisp)Major Mode Conventions") ] > | =C2=A0 =C2=A0* The key sequences bound in a major mode keymap should us= ually > | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0start with `C-c', followed by a control character, = a digit, or `{', > | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0`}', `<', `>', `:' or `;'. =C2=A0The other punctuat= ion characters are > | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reserved for minor modes, and ordinary letters are = reserved for > | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0users. > `---- > > ,----[ (info "(elisp)Keymaps and Minor Modes") ] > | =C2=A0 =C2=A0The key sequences bound in a minor mode should consist of = `C-c' > | followed by one of `.,/?`'"[]\|~!#$%^&*()-_+=3D'. =C2=A0(The other punc= tuation > | characters are reserved for major modes.) > `---- > > But since old emacs users and users happy with the emacs way would like > to stick to the default bindings, we would have to somehow invend > conventions that fit for both Emacs and CUAmacs. =C2=A0I'm pretty sure th= at's > near to impossible if you want to preserve a rest of mnemonics and > consistency. Aren't your description rather accurate also without making CUA mode default? (Except for swapping new and old users?) This is what I mean with that CUA mode currently is a second citizen.