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From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: levelhalom@gmail.com, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:37:59 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=5uzsqaY3tCySy1MTYmtEsRg_ju_161OHkriuZ@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <834ofczxv2.fsf@gnu.org>

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:13 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> If someone needs a data point that terminology doesn't matter much,
> read the manual for Vim -- it uses non-standard terminology (including
> "yank", btw, and other weirdly named commands), and yet is very
> popular.

I think that the situation is different for Vim. For example since it
uses "y" as a command prefix then talking about "yank" makes sense.
And since vi basic key bindings are fixed and that is a basic idea of
vi it makes even more sense.

But still it disturbed me quite a lot in the beginning (but learning
vi was a necessity then).

> I already wrote long ago in this thread that to make Emacs more
> attractive, we need to add to it hot new features that target software
> developers.  If we do that, and do it well, terminology differences
> and weird keybindings will not prevent hackers to come on board,
> because hackers want productivity features.

Strange key bindings makes it probably harder to attract new
developers and users.

And that is perhaps part of the reason that Emacs is lacking some features.

It seems to me that this is part of lack of coordination.
Standardizing makes is easier to coordinate. It is very difficult
though (and I think it is often mistaken as opposed to freedom to
cusomize).



  reply	other threads:[~2010-08-02 18:37 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 313+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2010-07-09 19:12 Emacs learning curve Noah Lavine
2010-07-10  6:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-10 10:36   ` Tom
2010-07-10 11:17     ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-10 11:41       ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-10 15:07         ` Tom
2010-07-10 16:23           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-10 16:39             ` Deniz Dogan
2010-07-10 16:44             ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-11  1:22               ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-11  8:33               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-11 11:10                 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-12 16:54                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-12 17:08                     ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-12 17:45                       ` joakim
2010-07-12 17:59                         ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-13  6:41                         ` David Kastrup
2010-07-12 17:53                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-12 17:48                     ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 18:05                       ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-10 17:57             ` Tom
2010-07-10 18:32               ` Bernardo Barros
2010-07-10 21:03               ` David Kastrup
2010-07-11  8:34                 ` Tom
2010-07-11 10:51                   ` Sebastian Rose
2010-07-11 16:05                     ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-11 16:55                       ` Miles Bader
2010-07-11 17:14                         ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-11 17:59                           ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 18:01                             ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 19:00                             ` Jan Djärv
2010-07-11 19:08                               ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 22:49                             ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-12  7:25                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-12  9:00                                 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-12  9:30                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-12 20:56                                     ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 18:00                           ` Drew Adams
2010-07-11 22:49                             ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-11 23:18                               ` Drew Adams
2010-07-11 18:05                           ` Sebastian Rose
2010-07-11 18:15                             ` Clipboard interactions [was: Re: Emacs learning curve] David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 18:45                               ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 23:14                         ` Clipboard interactions [was: " Juri Linkov
2010-07-12  9:00                           ` Clipboard interactions Miles Bader
2010-07-12 15:57                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-12 16:59                               ` Jan Djärv
2010-07-13  2:06                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13  7:53                                   ` Jan Djärv
2010-07-13  8:41                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-11 15:08                   ` Emacs learning curve Drew Adams
2010-08-04 20:54           ` Walter Alejandro Iglesias
2010-08-05 17:39             ` Barry Fishman
2010-08-06  2:48               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-08-06  2:59               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-06  3:10                 ` Miles Bader
2010-08-06  5:18                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-08-06 11:43                 ` Walter Alejandro Iglesias
2010-07-10 23:22         ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-11  1:00         ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-11  1:44           ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-11  2:14           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-11  2:23             ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-11  2:47               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-18 19:33         ` Giorgos Keramidas
2010-08-02  9:19       ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 13:26         ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-08-02 14:57           ` Tassilo Horn
2010-08-02 15:00             ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-08-02 15:50             ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 18:19               ` Tassilo Horn
2010-08-02 20:31             ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 21:42               ` Johan Bockgård
2010-08-04 17:49                 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 14:16         ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 15:07           ` Sean Sieger
2010-08-02 15:55           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 20:35           ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 21:11             ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 18:13         ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-08-02 18:37           ` Lennart Borgman [this message]
2010-08-02 19:10             ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-08-02 20:02               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-03  5:57                 ` David Kastrup
2010-08-02 18:39           ` Tom
2010-08-02 18:43             ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 19:53               ` joakim
2010-08-03 22:07                 ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-08-04  9:13                   ` David Kastrup
2010-08-04  9:42                     ` Alex Ott
2010-08-03  3:33           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-08-03 18:45         ` Andy Wingo
2010-08-04 12:36           ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-10 15:01   ` Noah Lavine
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2010-08-02 19:02 grischka
2010-07-15 15:05 grischka
2010-07-14 17:14 grischka
2010-07-14 18:05 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-15  8:33   ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-15 13:49     ` Drew Adams
2010-07-16  1:31   ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-16  2:52     ` Miles Bader
2010-07-16  5:30     ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13  2:13 grischka
2010-07-13  5:58 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 19:18 grischka
2010-07-12 20:53 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-12 21:07   ` immanuel litzroth
2010-07-12 22:03   ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 22:29     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-12 23:22       ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 23:53         ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13  1:17           ` Drew Adams
2010-07-13  3:07             ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13  5:59               ` Drew Adams
2010-07-14  8:18                 ` Tom
2010-07-14  9:38                   ` David Kastrup
2010-07-14 10:31                     ` Tom
2010-07-14 18:32                       ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15  8:22                       ` Miles Bader
2010-07-15  8:51                         ` Tom
2010-07-15  9:05                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-15  9:27                             ` Tom
2010-07-15  9:41                               ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 10:09                                 ` Tom
2010-07-15 10:24                                   ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 10:31                                     ` Tom
2010-07-15 15:05                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-15 15:15                                   ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 15:39                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-16  4:35                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-16  9:15                                     ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-16  9:25                                       ` Miles Bader
2010-07-16 10:39                                       ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-15 10:00                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-15 10:14                                 ` Tom
2010-07-15 10:25                                   ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 10:34                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-16 16:56                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-16 17:12                             ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 17:27                               ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-16 17:38                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 18:11                                   ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-16 18:23                                     ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-16 20:10                                       ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-16 22:16                                         ` Miles Bader
2010-07-17  5:45                                           ` David Kastrup
2010-07-16 23:07                                         ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-17  6:02                                           ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-17  6:29                                             ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-17  7:21                                             ` David Kastrup
2010-07-17  7:43                                               ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-17 12:15                                             ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-17 12:27                                               ` David Kastrup
2010-07-17 13:01                                                 ` John Yates
2010-07-17 16:15                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-17 12:50                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2010-07-17 16:11                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-19 19:39                                               ` Andy Wingo
2010-07-19 19:47                                                 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-17 14:28                                             ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-17 15:56                                               ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-18 13:00                                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-18 19:21                                                   ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-20  1:56                                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-20 23:25                                                       ` Kim F. Storm
2010-07-17  6:09                                         ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-22 12:15                                           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 13:16                                             ` Tassilo Horn
     [not found]                                               ` <770DFAD9-23D5-4BD3-A209-7E64FFC8999C@gmail.com>
     [not found]                                                 ` <201007230857.48161.tassilo@member.fsf.org>
2010-07-23 12:53                                                   ` Ivan Andrus
2010-07-16 18:15                                   ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-16 18:59                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 19:02                                       ` David Kastrup
2010-07-16 19:14                                         ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 18:16                                 ` Jan Djärv
2010-07-22 17:52                               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 18:04                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-22 18:38                                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 18:40                                 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 22:29                           ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-16  9:04                       ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-16 19:05                       ` Ivan Kanis
2010-07-16 22:26                         ` Miles Bader
2010-07-17 17:08                           ` Ivan Kanis
2010-07-17 17:51                             ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-22 11:36                               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 12:14                                 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-22 12:18                                   ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 13:03                                     ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-22 18:01                                   ` Ivan Kanis
2010-07-22 19:45                                     ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 19:56                                       ` Wojciech Meyer
2010-07-22 21:58                                         ` Stephen Eilert
2010-07-23  6:08                                           ` David Kastrup
2010-07-23  6:23                                             ` Fren Zeee
2010-07-23 18:23                                           ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema
2010-07-23  7:28                                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 12:24                                 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 12:37                                   ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 14:20                                 ` Davis Herring
2010-07-22 15:59                                   ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 17:52                               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-17 20:09                             ` Miles Bader
2010-07-17 11:15                         ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema
2010-07-21 15:31                         ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-21 15:48                           ` Sebastian Rose
2010-07-21 16:50                           ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 17:52                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 18:40                           ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 19:21                             ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 19:27                               ` Wojciech Meyer
2010-07-25 12:33                                 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-25 14:22                                   ` Drew Adams
2010-07-25 14:59                                     ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-25 16:04                                       ` Drew Adams
2010-07-25 20:32                                     ` Fabian Ezequiel Gallina
2010-07-23 17:20                               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-23 17:57                                 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-23 18:19                                   ` Drew Adams
2010-07-24  3:33                                   ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-24  4:51                                     ` Miles Bader
2010-07-24 11:52                                       ` Kim F. Storm
2010-07-24 14:09                                         ` Miles Bader
2010-07-25  2:07                                         ` David Robinow
2010-07-23 13:47                       ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-23 14:41                         ` Tom
2010-07-23 16:02                           ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 17:50                             ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-23 18:07                               ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 20:28                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-23 22:21                                   ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 23:46                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-23 23:52                                       ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-24  1:16                                       ` Drew Adams
2010-07-24 14:30                                 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-23 19:12                               ` Tom
2010-07-24  8:55                                 ` Leo
2010-07-24 13:48                                   ` joakim
2010-07-24 17:57                                   ` Wojciech Meyer
2010-07-23 18:25                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-07-23 18:50                               ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 19:27                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-07-24  6:38                                 ` Ivan Andrus
2010-07-23 17:46                           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-14 12:13                 ` René Kyllingstad
2010-07-13  1:58           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13  3:25             ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13  6:17               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13  6:34               ` Tom
2010-07-13  8:02                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13  8:32                   ` Tom
2010-07-13  9:03                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13  9:20                       ` Tom
2010-07-13  9:19                     ` immanuel litzroth
2010-07-13 11:59                     ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-13 12:07                       ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 12:54                         ` joakim
2010-07-13 15:33                           ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 15:49                             ` joakim
2010-07-13 18:02                               ` Alex Ott
2010-07-13 16:12                             ` David Engster
2010-07-13 16:26                               ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 18:45                                 ` David Engster
2010-07-14  2:49                                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-14 11:43                                     ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-14 13:06                                       ` David Engster
2010-07-13 17:12                               ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-13 22:09                                 ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-13 12:19                       ` joakim
2010-07-13 12:41                       ` Tom
2010-07-13 20:08     ` Joe Brenner
2010-07-14 17:16       ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-13 21:01     ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-13 21:14       ` Drew Adams
2010-07-13 21:58         ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-14 10:41     ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-14 14:03       ` Drew Adams
2010-07-14 18:36         ` David Kastrup
2010-07-12 23:28   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-13  0:18     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13 16:54       ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-13 23:27       ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-13  7:56   ` christian.lynbech
2010-07-13  8:10     ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13  8:44       ` joakim
2010-07-13  9:09       ` immanuel litzroth
2010-07-13 11:43       ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-13 23:36     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13  9:23   ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-13 22:37     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-14  0:24       ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-07-14  2:32       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-14  7:19       ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-13  9:49   ` Miles Bader
2010-07-13 23:06     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13 13:51 ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-13 14:10   ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 17:03     ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-13 18:29   ` grischka
2010-07-14 17:16     ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-15 15:36       ` grischka
2010-07-29 20:46       ` Ted Zlatanov
2010-07-31 12:02         ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-31 13:32           ` martin rudalics
2010-07-31 13:44             ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-31 15:04               ` martin rudalics
2010-08-02 14:56           ` Ted Zlatanov
2010-08-02 15:43             ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-10 19:27 MON KEY
2010-07-11  2:16 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-11  3:39   ` MON KEY
2010-07-11 11:05     ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-08  7:44 Efforts to attract more users? joakim
2010-07-09  3:05 ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-09  7:33   ` Emacs learning curve (was Re: Efforts to attract more users?) christian.lynbech
2010-07-09  7:43     ` Emacs learning curve Masatake YAMATO

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