From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general Subject: Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 09:37:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8734vda9kz.fsf@yahoo.com> <5EC9A02F-DB34-48B6-BD2D-CB9E89A385D0@traductaire-libre.org> <83r0iwuek9.fsf@gnu.org> <837cknvkrx.fsf@gnu.org> <83r0iuuacz.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1208"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Stefan Kangas , =?utf-8?Q?Vincent_Bela=C3=AFche?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 06 12:39:06 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rM517-000AYL-9I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 12:39:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM50d-00017J-CB; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 06:38:35 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM37Z-0006W5-Rn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 04:37:37 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-40136.proton.ch ([185.70.40.136]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM37X-0001gq-2L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 04:37:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=traductaire-libre.org; s=protonmail; t=1704533846; x=1704793046; bh=kRVr9m9/zeq5FgVL+BLe2kkRB3iTvlZpyEYQoyk+FlE=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=jFXEShtJsx1Hy2Ai4JbGB3m4HLIQZbHQXKYasIaRdrQpMk6RK4LRGOJQTUWdG9ILd 4SV0LJTSTwSYGXnBhapY2+VJ9aNGh+5DvtCzbroJBzUpXoS4pZ0PGFao8OS/Tb+9Nc GsKNztLsJVuq5dJDbgYS3GBdFsi1e8GIkdKkHmIst9rPuXIlYUz1mm2w9PS/cKk+vf 6CY3AehnGEAFk/vvK+sUjU9p3uzby2lRlYdPXxQj3CncAZkL3QxZWihopfiF7rtzpZ LqDV45AOPFMdwNW86RfWtpvLwxVQMo10Kn3cqyVu0ZQAaJGP4iNQbmHv8zwqKhoAvg VlJg1s6qkSTyw== In-Reply-To: <83r0iuuacz.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 92162971:user:proton Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.40.136; envelope-from=jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org; helo=mail-40136.proton.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 06:38:32 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314607 gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general:3370 Archived-At: > On Jan 6, 2024, at 17:36, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >=20 >> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 04:40:41 +0000 >> From: Jean-Christophe Helary >> Cc: Stefan Kangas , Vincent Bela=C3=AFche , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Richard Stallman , he= lp-texinfo@gnu.org >>=20 >>> I wasn't talking about the manuals. But even for the manuals there >>> are some issues that need to be considered. For example: what do we >>> do with the info/dir file for these translated manuals? what should be >>> @dircategory for them -- should it be a separate category, like >>> "Translated manuals", or should it be the same as in the original >>> English manuals? >>=20 >>=20 >> I suppose the @dircategory is also what appears in the Emacs info top >> page under =E2=80=9C*Menu:=E2=80=9D? >=20 > The category headings there, yes. >=20 >> If that=E2=80=99s the case, what about using =E2=80=9CTranslated manuals= =E2=80=9D for now, >> since the number of translated manuals is very low? >=20 > I'd say the other way around: as long as we have very few > translations, keeping them together with the English version is > better. >=20 > I wonder what Texinfo folks have to say about that. Are there any > precedents for having such translations in DIR files? >=20 >> Other texinfo items that come to mind: >>=20 >> Would @author be also used for the translator? >=20 > @author is a TeX command and goes into the printed version. For > translation, we'd need a separate directive, I think, since a > translator is not the author. Again, this is something for the > Texinfo folks to handle. Legally speaking a translator is an author. Depending on the=20 jurisdiction (Anglo-Saxon right vs EU right for ex.), the translator=20 hold full copyright on the translation, unless it was a work for hire,=20 etc. That=E2=80=99s why there are contracts between publishing houses and= =20 translators to allow or not the use of the translation is such and such=20 format. I am not an IP lawyer, but I know what=E2=80=99s written in the=20 contracts I=E2=80=99ve signed. Creating another directive for the translation author seems like=20 splitting hairs. But maybe not using @author at all and just adding a=20 sentence in the text regarding the translation is the way to go. >> Also, we will have to translate @node, because they appear in the >> Section index. I see that they were kept in English in the SES manual. >=20 > If we translate @node names, links from the doc strings and > cross-manual links will not work. They will if they are translated in the other manuals. That=E2=80=99s what = I=E2=80=99m=20 doing in the Emacs manuals at the moment. > But, for such links to work, we > need a facility to tell the Info reader that when a link goes to a > manual named FOO.info, it should visit FOO-LANG.info instead. Again, > something that involves a change in Texinfo and in all Info readers. What are the practical cases where translating nodes would be a problem? 1. I read a manual in English, there is a link with a node in English,=20 it directs to the other English manual. It=E2=80=99s the expected behaviour. 2. I read a manual in French, there is a link with a node in English,=20 it directs to the other English manual. If the other manual exists in French, it is not the proper behaviour. 3. I read a manual in French, there is a link with a node in French, it=20 directs to the other French manual. If the other manual exists in French, it is the proper behaviour. If it does not, we should have an error message that informs the reader=20 that the manual is not translated. So instead of a complex look up system, just an error message for links=20 that don=E2=80=99t work should be sufficient. Don=E2=80=99t you think? One issue seems to be that nodes have natural language IDs that also=20 appear in the manual. If nodes were just arbitrary IDs associated to a=20 string, like =E2=80=9C2.1.2.fr=E2=80=9D associated to =E2=80=9CMa section= =E2=80=9D, while =E2=80=9C2.1.2.en=E2=80=9D is=20 =E2=80=9CMy section=E2=80=9D, it would be easier to do the lookup and the m= anual would=20 print the correct string. In my current work on the Emacs manual, every time I find a node, I=20 look for it in all the other chapters/manuals and adapt its translation.