From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Why the change to *Messages*? [was: bug#15399...] Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 14:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9ff78c86-dafd-4168-ba48-e0e62a2036a1@default> References: <4519DD53-A6F3-44DD-97C6-43443BBA1C98@mit.edu> <592FE22C-6EA4-4F80-A19A-EBC88836B551@mit.edu> <83y56vs3lj.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1379453165 28487 80.91.229.3 (17 Sep 2013 21:26:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:26:05 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 17 23:26:08 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VM2mb-0005ud-Uq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2013 23:26:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43468 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VM2mb-0003Kc-BD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2013 17:26:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45361) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VM2mR-0003Jo-Pg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2013 17:26:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VM2mK-0005N3-LL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2013 17:25:55 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:19296) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VM2mK-0005Mp-FS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2013 17:25:48 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r8HLPkK4005165 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:25:46 GMT Original-Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r8HLPjjL028073 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:25:46 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt110.oracle.com (abhmt110.oracle.com [141.146.116.62]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r8HLPiur016099 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:25:44 GMT In-Reply-To: <83y56vs3lj.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:163402 Archived-At: > Subject: bug#15399: 24.3.50; Eshell redirection broken in HEAD >=20 > > Buffer is read-only: # > > That's unrelated. etc/NEWS: > ** The *Messages* buffer is created in a new major mode > `messages-buffer-mode', and read-only. Why? Where was the discussion in emacs-devel@gnu.org about this change to *Messages*? No other bug was referenced above, so I guess this was not due to a reported bug or enhancement request. Is this change perhaps a response to this old thread from 2010? http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-02/msg00078.html That is the only discussion I've seen about this question. FWIW, I disagree with this change, and to similar changes, such as what was done to *Help* - see bug #10308: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D10308. I often debug using `message' to write to *Messages*, if using the debugger is problematic (typically during Isearch or minibuffer interaction). And I write stuff there directly also, to guide myself. Now (for what reason?), *Messages* is in its own mode, and it is read-only. I don't have an Emacs build with the change yet, so I don't know just what `messages-buffer-mode' (a bad name, BTW) is. But if this is anything like what was done to *Help* then toggling `read-only' off will not suffice, and I will now need to change the mode for yet another buffer. And why? Just because someone thought it convenient to hit `q' (instead of, say, `C-x 0') to quit *Messages*? Or was there some other reason? A good reason? Why no proposal and discussion before this change was made? Or did I somehow miss the thread? Yes, I can fiddle to work around this change, as one user. But why is this good for Emacs? I edit text in *Messages* (and in *Help*, to prepare doc strings), and I doubt I'm the only one who does. What is so beneficial about this change (after almost 40 years of *Messages* being normally editable)?