From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why :USE sucks in the Common Lisp package system Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 15:01:07 -0700 Message-ID: <97d553d0-1d00-05a4-1601-d2b8b110c838@dancol.org> References: <87ftcee7td.fsf@tromey.com> <87pnbgzdmx.fsf@tromey.com> <1225997b-648a-068d-7f6b-e1575477a0d0@dancol.org> <875zd62qy7.fsf@t510.orion.oneofus.la> <09ed390e-c735-3a7e-ecfd-504557b192a2@dancol.org> <87368a2d1a.fsf@t510.orion.oneofus.la> <378efe96-8069-2aaa-283f-14edf13445e5@disroot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="11190"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: emacs-devel To: =?UTF-8?Q?Micha=c5=82_=22phoe=22_Herda?= , =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun May 10 00:04:28 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jXXa8-0002nd-8U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 10 May 2020 00:04:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44704 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jXXa7-0001aA-6Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 09 May 2020 18:04:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39534) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jXXWz-0006jU-0G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2020 18:01:13 -0400 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3]:34476) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jXXWx-0007cZ-H3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2020 18:01:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=oRhW/MGvUH9CQKuik3nCelckucsR528DvhI0IHeEwZI=; b=QZd2vFFgv1iT6LF0OIm+8rTBvb 51OgA4WgD+CV94jYOtkc5LNFCvUo19FCk2Mr++8Ncu2LVcKW/3jFG7Rs1MA5cpikTZ/glEflEzfwL rVXFBcolyDl+KkPcmzKzMPaWdyXzbK0n/t1e1Rr0/yX15i9N9qtXxQtsWAVCQw3xhwIrbi7v9apTp Orb7OPkzEHGAsBzBSXMSDPIGmZIEhGXmvh7wgLpPHrmN1Q/9QDZDCvje/zcvslwTzTqthlUtp3+Iu r3TuQL6pMWtxBSLxkSPirhLfT1x0VUwniARRY98xeLb8lz8gRpjnIvd9iLNI2yoWMpreCbbk5vhEB WnYhDwuA==; Original-Received: from [2604:4080:1321:9a00:3d60:5fe6:8cb4:e9e6] by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1jXXWu-0006iz-Bn; Sat, 09 May 2020 15:01:08 -0700 In-Reply-To: <378efe96-8069-2aaa-283f-14edf13445e5@disroot.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3; envelope-from=dancol@dancol.org; helo=dancol.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: 12 X-Spam_score: 1.2 X-Spam_bar: + X-Spam_report: (1.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249590 Archived-At: On 5/9/20 2:55 PM, Michał "phoe" Herda wrote: > Thanks for the welcome. > > On 09.05.2020 23:47, João Távora wrote: >> But don't _you_ ever use :USE it for packages that you _do_ have >> control over?  Like an internal utils package?  Or a test package >> that uses the package under testing?  Otherwise I agree with you >> about the ":USE abuse". > > Of course I do! I've mentioned in my earlier mail, > > > or a combination of packages that do not change and we have full > control over so we can manually see and resolve the symbol conflicts as > they arise > > Perhaps that wasn't clear enough from me: I meant that it is fine to > :USE packages that are known to not change and to :USE packages that we > fully control, such as internal util packages that you mention; and it > is fine to combine using the two within a single package. It's just as easy to use local nicknames here though. I still haven't seen a compelling case for :use that outweighs the risk of imprudent use. Why is prefix-less import of some internal utils package so important? If the utils package and the user of the utils package have the same author, they can just share a namespace instead of one using the other.