From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [RFE] Migration to gitlab Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 02:26:44 +0300 Message-ID: <93f38b88-059b-b243-49bf-df61f424fb3f@yandex.ru> References: <1552789070.5272.1@yandex.ru> <1552791707.5272.2@yandex.ru> <1552793646.5272.3@yandex.ru> <1552821396.21432.0@yandex.ru> <83imwhwf4x.fsf@gnu.org> <837ecvux2q.fsf@gnu.org> <9c7cf558-a2d3-951e-d6e1-31b3ad5900cf@yandex.ru> <1553064994.13109.0@yandex.ru> <831s32t3fn.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="149843"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 Cc: theophilusx@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Konstantin Kharlamov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 21 01:27:44 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hHzOR-000cgd-Oc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Apr 2019 01:27:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46512 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hHzOQ-0001S1-Hv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Apr 2019 19:27:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33761) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hHzNp-0001Rv-0Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Apr 2019 19:26:58 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hHzNl-0008G4-Gy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Apr 2019 19:26:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x141.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::141]:46238) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hHzNl-0008F7-9P; Sat, 20 Apr 2019 19:26:53 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x141.google.com with SMTP id k18so6435677lfj.13; Sat, 20 Apr 2019 16:26:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nzkR+SUKCgemYt3mTWEWMSIYPhvWKzD0CYB5VhMm2uE=; b=e+NPCQUUaC0KCDDoEAVP+/7cS2AhpqnEqo9phS7GeDFS1K1Lt7giD2tN/sZPt8eLal lncfldundbZjQDKMWP+UgBJAFFmc+jMjAC3DFwkyn58WMY0fZiOd7LfuF+xdcJfITVId zaY9ZGkPD2NJXDJ1/Vj9w6bh7ceyqcMuP6e8rtRx9cp4fE0HF4b++8w1gbc85J2Yk4V1 4CjJemuqk8LNgY0FfN6witRzFjRlurOTvzvXmakEQIbR0aTcOrd1WZsQ593LHqhrTcsA lNpTRF6USGzgx5gd/NnbU+hmswaRhBS4/kQOJGGUQdn7PQdZv4uXzVRXMaRskZpkZTgF DNFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=nzkR+SUKCgemYt3mTWEWMSIYPhvWKzD0CYB5VhMm2uE=; b=ZMhws2GtjzmeWgb0h3Z/z7Qaf7aou7YmsVwE44d5S4PlEuZTR4KXjRAmUNOmjo5Ej/ 7Fq9o1dkEShzBZxQccXT3eAsfmQ5AU8FAPg13Y4J/4YjlQXB7Q0TePBz+UIsYWzc1q7W vG8lcUZsP3krn2btf9VCf8quAEYz8XiKgtg6YkNplIFEVIGcBJrDx4R1/XolmhHoLCAi qFV17azOAA+6YlRYKfeY9n91pEVZN4Jfvonl45e0QkM08ibR07Em2U+5688jKq3qRZ7d RZ0LoSlWuuffYZo68fd9ReZeqPcNIJZTB9g3KOVnpoHXS0jxLu+fO7x2nMTPosP7Tk1W BkXw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVaTGHZywOh3Wbq32MC6H9UgBmsPBa0Z7xgO9XyljV5YE8w5+5w YVOo9gs5vS76zFWuFltqD0oEQPyU X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyVzg1fWocrzZiVhiO7HLrHQWEKmgtxhalQtCX/w7Rz3jmphjkJBVYNngug9yItbCwtJivn8g== X-Received: by 2002:a19:3f54:: with SMTP id m81mr6078307lfa.98.1555802808800; Sat, 20 Apr 2019 16:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([185.105.174.23]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id t7sm1894870ljj.87.2019.04.20.16.26.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Apr 2019 16:26:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <831s32t3fn.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::141 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:235721 Archived-At: On 20.03.2019 9:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Unlike in many other projects, I consider the situation with patch > review, and more generally with the number of domain experts we have > on board in Emacs, a disaster. Personally, I expect a lot more packages to be retired or moved from the core into ELPA in the future, perhaps tagged as unmaintained. If we don't manage to review all patches, it means Emacs has grown larger than the core team can deal with. Tools can alleviate that to some extent (to help people stretch wider), but not infinitely. But that's neither here nor there. > Recent years saw a lot of change in Emacs infrastructure and > maintenance procedures -- we moved from CVS to Bazaar to Git, we > removed some of the obstacles to newcomers, such as ChangeLog files, > we codified the most important parts of the procedures in CONTRIBUTE, > etc. This indeed brought welcome new contributors, but the growth is > very slow, and the impact on the patch review process and on the > number of people who are proficient in core parts of the internals is > still very much minor and inadequate, IMO. E.g., the backlog in patch > review and in solving reported issues is still unsatisfactory. You're mentioning some changes, but the patch review process itself has changed very little in the last... how many years? And speaking of backlogs in patch/bug review, I'm personally unsure how many bug reports and patches are out there unattended that relate to the files that I maintain. The tagging system is barely adequate, and every time I use Debbugs I have to rediscover it (as well as search, with its bugs) all over again. > So personally, I don't think we are ready for another significant > change in our procedures and infrastructure, not before we give some > more time to these slow tendencies to develop into significant > qualitative changes. People who want those infrastructure changes > should become more involved, so that we reach the critical mass > sooner. People work on what they want to work on. Even if they somehow feel more encouraged to contribute, not many people are going to work on arbitrary pieces of Emacs, or review random patches. On the other hand, discussing the possibility of a migration and agreeing on some specific goals can encourage people to get more familiar with Emacs development workflow, even as they try to improve it. Which can increase the pool of contributors as well, by itself. I think it will be helpful to outline and agree on some rough migration plan which can be enacted. With steps and conditions for the "people who want" to know what to work on. For instance, here are the steps that I personally could be happy with: - We already have EMBA and some people proficient with keeping it running. We've even pushed a feature upstream, that one of our long-time developers requested. Let's mark this one "done". - Figure out the timeout problems and make the builds more stable. - Support "merge requests" submitted to EMBA as an official way to submit patches for Emacs, document it in Contribute, etc. Some core developments will probably say that they would prefer to conduct reviews by email anyway, or via some Emacs-based UI instead of the web UI. Collect the requirements, agree on necessary features, test them out until people are reasonably happy, adopt. Some integration with Debbugs and/or Savannah will also be required, I think. - Migrate from Debbugs to GitLab Issues. The holy grail for me personally. But it'll still require a fair amount of work, similar to the previous item (but more). Probably far off to the future. We'll get there when we get there.