From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Starb=E4ck?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: C-j considered harmful (not really) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:09:33 +0100 Message-ID: <912155b0911230809q219e70acyde63e42e11433547@mail.gmail.com> References: <912155b0911161437l7d5d5d3h790edff279fdad7a@mail.gmail.com> <7b501d5c0911161451s3e54e48dve127bd144f2affc8@mail.gmail.com> <877htpjwd4.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <912155b0911221236t7cebbb35n4bc10805bb685c1e@mail.gmail.com> <87zl6dk2pz.fsf@mail.jurta.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1258992783 15040 80.91.229.12 (23 Nov 2009 16:13:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:13:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Juri Linkov , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier , Deniz Dogan To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 23 17:12:55 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1NCbWs-00034j-O6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:12:43 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49824 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCbWr-0002B7-UZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:12:41 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCbTw-0001IF-LL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:09:40 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCbTr-0001Ff-H1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:09:39 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=39639 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCbTr-0001FI-9o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:09:35 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-fx0-f213.google.com ([209.85.220.213]:47201) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NCbTq-0003Fh-R5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:09:35 -0500 Original-Received: by fxm5 with SMTP id 5so6344408fxm.8 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:09:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=UxGc8lj0+6A+kbYLMDq+ge5hNtKAwBmfycmxLy7uJ3c=; b=TtMshbiqd0Eggw+MKPBk/eDt9Y4xq3CtYughlspGtcW+6QmWcwkJ+NyZqd21pmhkPc f7unMB9o4o7eFeJWKUdxpMSReJYHM3zGhpz9pDbGHH2sPya+R/UuuWqVKUzpxgluaT6Z yx5E/NJPIvgg5omR8jOpD3mJc43688aBTEDXY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=oEOoXf7wt+LrAkAQMyiIf5HkwjLdIF9t3y90a+Qi5IXHhm8/VGhXplel6fAcJ8HLYv G+Z6a9NIFEqftj3HJ7QLDpzzUUGNVS9yNuoNlcwxV1ou7i9PP0OtPy4P1AjQxda2ueJ6 AzX3e9hAq8vbzSL1UggYYlHP8xF6cBtEOAAQ4= Original-Received: by 10.223.76.91 with SMTP id b27mr787793fak.16.1258992573183; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:09:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Google-Sender-Auth: d7280b01f6244317 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:117592 Archived-At: > I wasn't going to speak to the general question about `S-RET' as a binding for > newline, but since I've started... > > 2. I don't like the idea of binding `S-RET' to newline. The argument is > apparently that some users will be used to that and thus expect it. So what? > There are so many more things to learn about Emacs that might not be what > someone is used to. This is truly not a big deal, and it doesn't warrant > sacrificing a good key such as `S-RET'. That key is naturally associated with In some ways S-RET is *not* a "good key", since it's not available in all platforms. I see that as one of the reasons why the proposed binding is so good as a standard binding. Since Emacs normally avoids using keys not available everywhere for important stuff, nothing much is really sacrificed. It is only a win (even though maybe it's not big a win). (And of course a library like icicles could change that for those who want that.) > RET, which is used often and has specific meanings in different contexts, so > `S-RET' can be used for a variant of what RET does in any given context (see #1 > wrt the minibuffer's RET). > `C-j' _IS_ newline. OK, some people don't know that. But most programmers of > UNIX, Linux, C, etc. do know it, and others can surely learn it - no biggee. It (Well, C-j is linefeed, and linefeed is newline in Unix, and thus in GNU, and thus in Emacs buffers.) I agree that's it's not a biggie and that others *can* learn it. But I prefer if they don't have to, since they have lots of other stuff to learn as well. Every good step is a good step, even the small ones. > is elegant to use the key to self-insert, the same way it is elegant to use the > key `a' to insert an `a' character. Absolutely. Even though the non-paren part of my subject line might indicate otherwise I only want an alternative. (And I would like C-j to self-insert in minibuffers.)